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[waka]

Furthermore if you think it is ok for a 250 hour pilot to be flying you around then you are crazy.

At 250 hours I was doing formation flight beneath powerlines, spraying fields, fresh out of high school...and doing a pretty good job. I used to get asked frequently by passengers if they could see my driver's license...they wanted to see if I was old enough to be flying them...some weren't joking. Many of them were your ilk...ones who were too ignorant of the facts to be taken seriously; clearly they didn't know what they were talking about.

I agree with most of your reply. However, this part doesn't say much and it's anecdotal at best. You may have been a hot shot at 250 hours but, in general, a 250 hour pilot should not be in the right seat of an airplane in which an ATP is required of a PIC. Sure, there are exceptions but, bottiom line, experience = safer. I have talked to too many Captains at regionals with "programs" that put flight school grads in the right seat. They are worthless when anything even resembles an abnormal situation.

 

[avbug]

Au contraire. Not just the regionals, but the majors have a long history of putting very low time pilots in the right seat. Pilots with very little experience moving out of a FE seat, and over the years some firms have hired extremely low time pilots into large aircraft with regularity.

The military routinely moves 260 to 300 hour pilots into large equipment, high sped small equipment, and everything in between. It's standard faire throughout the world to have very low time pilots in everything from a Dash 8 to a 737 on up. The truth is that where for years a pilot in the US might require five thousand hours to get in a 737...a pilot in europe might require 300 or less. Even in the cases where the pilot here required five thousand to be competitive enough to apply, the captain with whom he'd be sitting might very well have hired on at 300 hours, himself...with no other outside experience.

I'm all for experience, and have been preaching it for a long time. However, an ATP is no guarantee of experience, or skill. The ATP issued in the United States has become somewhat of a joke internaitonally, and is often referred to as a joke. It means very little, and with no logbook verification or investigation any more, it no longer represents validation of one's experience, either. To suggest that an ATP indicates something, anything, about an airman is in error. Perhaps it shows that the applicant can read a book and take a test after having read the answers...and visit a certificate mill to get his paperwork done...but doesn't signify anything more than that.

A regional airline job is an entry level job with a relatively low demand on the pilot...who flies inside of a narrowly defined performance box. Not exactly an assignment that requires the grace and glory of an uber-pilot.

A typical experienced ATP may perform a walk-around on an aircraft for which he is type rated. He looks the airplane over. He sees an attach bolt on a control clevis with a fiberlock nut with the threads of the bolt protruding by one thread only. Is it legal? Is it safe? He's responsible for making that determination...but does he even know what he's looking at? Truth is that most ATP's don't...yet that valueable experience, those mighty 1,500 hours...make him somehow a better candidate?

Hours mean nothing, experience everything. Two pilots may fly a hour, but come away with entirely different experiences. One drones around, flies point to point, and lands...and has little to show for it. The other intensely trains, pushes himself, and comes away much richer for that hour. One has become an hour more experienced, the other has spent an hour looking out the window. I've known many low time pilots with whom I'd trust my family, and many high-time pilots with whom I wouldn't allow my dog to fly.

There's a reason that the ATP is required only for the PIC.

Notably, the original poster has been seen to cry out that all pilots should have the ATP in the cockpit...yet has been quoted saying that he finds two captains in the cockpit to be a "joke." Where does that leave us with his request? Safely able to discount anything he has said, or will say further, as a complete waste of time.

 

[nismo611]

Au contraire. Not just the regionals, but the majors have a long history of putting very low time pilots in the right seat. Pilots with very little experience moving out of a FE seat, and over the years some firms have hired extremely low time pilots into large aircraft with regularity.

The military routinely moves 260 to 300 hour pilots into large equipment, high sped small equipment, and everything in between. It's standard faire throughout the world to have very low time pilots in everything from a Dash 8 to a 737 on up. The truth is that where for years a pilot in the US might require five thousand hours to get in a 737...a pilot in europe might require 300 or less. Even in the cases where the pilot here required five thousand to be competitive enough to apply, the captain with whom he'd be sitting might very well have hired on at 300 hours, himself...with no other outside experience.

I'm all for experience, and have been preaching it for a long time. However, an ATP is no guarantee of experience, or skill. The ATP issued in the United States has become somewhat of a joke internaitonally, and is often referred to as a joke. It means very little, and with no logbook verification or investigation any more, it no longer represents validation of one's experience, either. To suggest that an ATP indicates something, anything, about an airman is in error. Perhaps it shows that the applicant can read a book and take a test after having read the answers...and visit a certificate mill to get his paperwork done...but doesn't signify anything more than that.

A regional airline job is an entry level job with a relatively low demand on the pilot...who flies inside of a narrowly defined performance box. Not exactly an assignment that requires the grace and glory of an uber-pilot.

A typical experienced ATP may perform a walk-around on an aircraft for which he is type rated. He looks the airplane over. He sees an attach bolt on a control clevis with a fiberlock nut with the threads of the bolt protruding by one thread only. Is it legal? Is it safe? He's responsible for making that determination...but does he even know what he's looking at? Truth is that most ATP's don't...yet that valueable experience, those mighty 1,500 hours...make him somehow a better candidate?

Hours mean nothing, experience everything. Two pilots may fly a hour, but come away with entirely different experiences. One drones around, flies point to point, and lands...and has little to show for it. The other intensely trains, pushes himself, and comes away much richer for that hour. One has become an hour more experienced, the other has spent an hour looking out the window. I've known many low time pilots with whom I'd trust my family, and many high-time pilots with whom I wouldn't allow my dog to fly.

There's a reason that the ATP is required only for the PIC.

Notably, the original poster has been seen to cry out that all pilots should have the ATP in the cockpit...yet has been quoted saying that he finds two captains in the cockpit to be a "joke." Where does that leave us with his request? Safely able to discount anything he has said, or will say further, as a complete waste of time.

Wow first off I would like to begin by asking if that was english? abug are you retarded? Excellent spelling and grammar......

Well in retort to low time pilots in Europe and the military, the applicants have to selected with an aptitude for flying in both cases. Not just an American Express, Visa, Mastercard, or a fist full of cash.

Nobody ever said that having an ATP guarantees skill, but it does ensure that people have more experience than commercial MEL standards which are pretty low. Your log book is still audited by the way, now I know you are usually there every time anyone gets issued a new certificate but you must have dosed off on that last couple hundred. Maybe you were on FI bitching about things, maybe you were writing a check to one of your ex wives for children that despise you, or maybe you were out actually working telling everyone around you how awesome you were. I just don't know avbug.

Finally in my post about the flight in the regional airline which I do often, my compliant was that even with two captains they were still really rough with the aircraft large power changes often, spoilers extended to level off, and just overall lousy piloting. There is plenty to be said for experience, maybe you flying under power lines made you the best ever but I seriously doubt it. You also said in a post that being a flight instructor was not valuable time, I suppose you never bothered to teach, well I beg to argue that and so would many others. avbug I am sorry that there are people like you in this community please retire go to Florida get yourself a retirement trailer in Sarasota many people would thank you for that.