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Contact your local congressman

nismo611

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I have noticed that on FI and other aviation forums there are many complaints about aviation overall but I wonder how many people are actually doing something about it so I decided recently to contact my local congressman and as many others as I could find and I complained about the sad state of aviation including debts incurred to become a pilot and how the student loan companies are having there way with all of us but are still being bailed out, low salaries across the board, and also the state of the regional airlines with low time pilots with even lower pay scales. Please take a minute to call your local congressmen and the congressmen where you have either lived in the past or where you did your flight training. This industry is going down the drain, and it will continue to do so until people stand up and attempt to do something about it.
 

avbug

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What do you want congress to do about the cost of learning to fly?

How are loan companies "having their way" with you?

You want congress to mandate higher pilot salaries?

I hear you whining...what solutions do you offer or propose?
 

nismo611

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blah
What do you want congress to do about the cost of learning to fly?

How are loan companies "having their way" with you?

You want congress to mandate higher pilot salaries?

I hear you whining...what solutions do you offer or propose?


First of all they need to raise minimum time to get into a regional or a transport category aircraft, for example make having an ATP a requirement. That alone would help push salaries up, too many pilots want so badly to fly a jet that they will just take sub par pay to do it. Furthermore if you think it is ok for a 250 hour pilot to be flying you around then you are crazy. Student loan companies are no better than a loan shark with terms and conditions and borrowing costs. Why do they deserve such a huge bailout? Let them go under force the federal government to take over private loans or regulate them more closely. I do not want the government to do anything about the cost of learning to fly.
 

Andy Neill

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First of all they need to raise minimum time to get into a regional or a transport category aircraft, for example make having an ATP a requirement. That alone would help push salaries up, too many pilots want so badly to fly a jet that they will just take sub par pay to do it. Furthermore if you think it is ok for a 250 hour pilot to be flying you around then you are crazy. Student loan companies are no better than a loan shark with terms and conditions and borrowing costs. Why do they deserve such a huge bailout? Let them go under force the federal government to take over private loans or regulate them more closely. I do not want the government to do anything about the cost of learning to fly.
Which "student loan companies" (is that another term for "banks"?) got bailouts. Why did you take out a loan with oppressive terms? What further regulations would be needed?

I will write a letter asking my representatives to support any move to make ATP flight experience the new minimum for Part 121 flight crew. I think we have a splendid window of opportunity now with the glut of pilots available through furloughs and age 65 impact.
 

nismo611

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Apr 22, 2008
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yes banks, I was young and naive it was my only available funding to finish my education. Sallie Mae, Citi, and Key. I firmly believe no 121 carrier should use low time pilots, use on the job training i.e. Tab GIA, or accept anything less than a professional with a professional background. It is hard to build time but it is better than ending up dead.
 

Andy Neill

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yes banks, I was young and naive it was my only available funding to finish my education. Sallie Mae, Citi, and Key. I firmly believe no 121 carrier should use low time pilots, use on the job training i.e. Tab GIA, or accept anything less than a professional with a professional background. It is hard to build time but it is better than ending up dead.

OK. Here is my draft letter to my senators and congressman. What do you think.
************
Dear [Congressman/Senator][ ]:

I am writing to ask your support in any effort to increase the minimum aviation experience requirements for airline pilots. The usual minimum requirement for new First Officers is a commercial aircraft certificate with instrument and multi-engine ratings (See CFR 121.383). That could mean the pilot would have as little as 250 hours flight experience as that is the minimum for the Commercial Pilot Certificate (see CFR 61.129). Indeed, in the middle of this decade, some operators have used pilots with that level experience.

I would strongly support any measure that increased employment requirements for all airline pilots be increased to those for an Airline Transport Rating. Among other things, this rating requires a minimum of 1500 hours of flight experience (see CFR 61.159).

Requiring pilots to obtain an additional thousand hours of flight experience doing other commercial flying will better prepare them for the demands of airline flying.

I foresee the following effects of such requirements:
.....The pool of qualified candidates will diminish
.....The compensation new pilots expect will be higher.
.....The cost of air travel will rise to a small degree as new pilot pay rises
.....The new pilots will be better prepared for their training at the airline.
.....The flying public will enjoy an added degree of safety reflecting the increased experience floor for all aircrews.

Thank you for your consideration in this matter.

Sincerely,
 

avbug

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Dec 14, 2001
Posts
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This industry is going down the drain, and it will continue to do so until people stand up and attempt to do something about it.
You're new to the industry, aren't you? Student pilot or flight instructor, perhaps? The industry is about where it's always been, going through the same cycles it always does. This your first time around, then?

First of all they need to raise minimum time to get into a regional or a transport category aircraft, for example make having an ATP a requirement.
"They?" You want congress to modify the regulation and establish this standard under 14 CFR Part 121...the Title under the Code of Federal Regulations entrusted to the FAA? You're not writing the FAA in this regard?

Who is this "they?"

Have you contacted each of the regional airlines and the unions that cover those airlines to discuss this and to lobby this idea, or is your idea of changing the world to simply write a letter to your congressman and have him jump right on it?

You believe the industry is going down the tubes and a letter to congress fixes it? Brilliant. Take care of that pesky deficit while you're at it. "They" should do something about that, too.

I firmly believe no 121 carrier should use low time pilots, use on the job training i.e. Tab GIA, or accept anything less than a professional with a professional background.
What exactly is a "professional background?" You think a pilot with 1,500 hours and a wet ATP is vastly more experienced? You think the ATP actually makes any difference in piloting ability? You're not really that blind, are you?

It is hard to build time but it is better than ending up dead.
You can find a link between youthful pilots and dead pilots? How many of the major air disasters over the past, say, 50 years have been at the hands of inexperienced, youthful pilots?

I had a discussion onu this topic today with a friend who noted that his second year of flying, at 500 hours, he was flying an F-105, and at 1,200 hours was leading 20-ship strike formations deep into Vietnam. Too bad nobody made him wait until he had 1,500 hours before they considered him professional enough to do his job, isn't it?

Furthermore if you think it is ok for a 250 hour pilot to be flying you around then you are crazy.
At 250 hours I was doing formation flight beneath powerlines, spraying fields, fresh out of high school...and doing a pretty good job. I used to get asked frequently by passengers if they could see my driver's license...they wanted to see if I was old enough to be flying them...some weren't joking. Many of them were your ilk...ones who were too ignorant of the facts to be taken seriously; clearly they didn't know what they were talking about.

Student loan companies are no better than a loan shark with terms and conditions and borrowing costs.
Perhaps you should seek legal action against the person who put a gun to your head and made you sign for that loan.

I used to cycle fifteen and twenty miles each way in the winter in the mountains, during high school, to scrub airplanes and work on them to get through my flight training, and for years worked two jobs at a time on top of flying. One does what one must. You apparently felt you should sign your soul to the devil, and you can be angry at yourself for taking that option, if you wish. But nobody else.

Rally congress to your aid to have college tuition lowered, while you're at it, and see if you can rake in some support to force flight schools to lower rental costs to make flying more accessible to everyone. You're on a roll.

Out of curiosity, why did you post a request to write congress about young pilots at regional airlines...in the training and instruction forum?

I do not want the government to do anything about the cost of learning to fly.
Ah. Cost's okay. Just not having a gun put to your head and you being forced to pay loan sharks to go fly. Gotcha. You just want congress to do something about the people who were good enough to loan you the money, then? And force everyone to reach that golden pinnacle of professionalism, the ATP...before flying for a regional airline?

Tell me about that "professional background" that one is supposed to have. Freight? Instruction? Ag? Military? Fire? What about that 800 hour military pilot? Not good enough for you, but the kid who's done nothing but bore circles around the pattern with Jimmy Two-Toes The Student for the past 1,500 hours...he's got a professional background?

How about this...set a mandate that everyone have at a minimum both a pilot and mechanic certificate, and have at least 500 hours of dual given. Each must build at least one airplane, and should have experience starting in a Sopwith Camel moving up through ragwing Cessnas through hang gliders and of course, the ubiquitous learjet, before applying for a job raising the landing gear in a Brasillia somewhere? Satisfied? Don't forget to require a doctorate...Lord only knows it's the least educated that cause the wrecks out there, along with those who don't hold an ATP...right??

You're not spamming the board enough. Try harder...

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=123570

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=123571

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=123572

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=123573

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=123574

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=123575

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=123576


http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=123573


 
Last edited:

avbug

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Posts
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From nismo611, on May 3rd...

I suppose I was able to afford an opportunity to attend Embry-Riddle, and yes it was not without problems.

Hold the phone...you're whining about the terrible cost of doing your flight training, and yet you chose to do it at one of the most expensive places in the country? You're not just calling the kettle black, you're stirring the pot after jumping in to take a bath. Your credibility goose has been cooked.

On the same post, you also stated...

As a passenger in a regional airliner, I never thought to myself what a smooth ride. The ride always sucks and my most recent experience when I looked up front there were two older guys flying. I counted 16 stripes in that cockpit what a joke.

Seems you'll say whatever you think best supports your point, however inane it may be.

Regional pilots are too young and too inexperienced, you say...but your most recent experience involved two "older guys" flying the airplane.

You want ATP pilots at a minimum, but found two pilots holding captain qualification in the cockpit of the flight to be a "joke."

Seems that clearly anything further you have to say is a waste of time, isn't it?
 

nismo611

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Posts
90
Total Time
blah
OK. Here is my draft letter to my senators and congressman. What do you think.
************
Dear [Congressman/Senator][ ]:

I am writing to ask your support in any effort to increase the minimum aviation experience requirements for airline pilots. The usual minimum requirement for new First Officers is a commercial aircraft certificate with instrument and multi-engine ratings (See CFR 121.383). That could mean the pilot would have as little as 250 hours flight experience as that is the minimum for the Commercial Pilot Certificate (see CFR 61.129). Indeed, in the middle of this decade, some operators have used pilots with that level experience.

I would strongly support any measure that increased employment requirements for all airline pilots be increased to those for an Airline Transport Rating. Among other things, this rating requires a minimum of 1500 hours of flight experience (see CFR 61.159).

Requiring pilots to obtain an additional thousand hours of flight experience doing other commercial flying will better prepare them for the demands of airline flying.

I foresee the following effects of such requirements:
.....The pool of qualified candidates will diminish
.....The compensation new pilots expect will be higher.
.....The cost of air travel will rise to a small degree as new pilot pay rises
.....The new pilots will be better prepared for their training at the airline.
.....The flying public will enjoy an added degree of safety reflecting the increased experience floor for all aircrews.

Thank you for your consideration in this matter.

Sincerely,

Looks great to me couldn't have said it better myself.
 

livin'thesim

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Apr 6, 2005
Posts
926
Total Time
.
No loan company has ever had its way with me.

I paid for my ratings with the money I earned, as I earned it.

Of course I am only a product of a deficient,inexpensive, inbred little local FBO, not the master-race progeny of some glam-school's disastrous experiment in pilot eugenics.
 

waka

Emasculating the Right
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Nov 28, 2001
Posts
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Furthermore if you think it is ok for a 250 hour pilot to be flying you around then you are crazy.

At 250 hours I was doing formation flight beneath powerlines, spraying fields, fresh out of high school...and doing a pretty good job. I used to get asked frequently by passengers if they could see my driver's license...they wanted to see if I was old enough to be flying them...some weren't joking. Many of them were your ilk...ones who were too ignorant of the facts to be taken seriously; clearly they didn't know what they were talking about.

I agree with most of your reply. However, this part doesn't say much and it's anecdotal at best. You may have been a hot shot at 250 hours but, in general, a 250 hour pilot should not be in the right seat of an airplane in which an ATP is required of a PIC. Sure, there are exceptions but, bottiom line, experience = safer. I have talked to too many Captains at regionals with "programs" that put flight school grads in the right seat. They are worthless when anything even resembles an abnormal situation.
 

avbug

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Au contraire. Not just the regionals, but the majors have a long history of putting very low time pilots in the right seat. Pilots with very little experience moving out of a FE seat, and over the years some firms have hired extremely low time pilots into large aircraft with regularity.

The military routinely moves 260 to 300 hour pilots into large equipment, high sped small equipment, and everything in between. It's standard faire throughout the world to have very low time pilots in everything from a Dash 8 to a 737 on up. The truth is that where for years a pilot in the US might require five thousand hours to get in a 737...a pilot in europe might require 300 or less. Even in the cases where the pilot here required five thousand to be competitive enough to apply, the captain with whom he'd be sitting might very well have hired on at 300 hours, himself...with no other outside experience.

I'm all for experience, and have been preaching it for a long time. However, an ATP is no guarantee of experience, or skill. The ATP issued in the United States has become somewhat of a joke internaitonally, and is often referred to as a joke. It means very little, and with no logbook verification or investigation any more, it no longer represents validation of one's experience, either. To suggest that an ATP indicates something, anything, about an airman is in error. Perhaps it shows that the applicant can read a book and take a test after having read the answers...and visit a certificate mill to get his paperwork done...but doesn't signify anything more than that.

A regional airline job is an entry level job with a relatively low demand on the pilot...who flies inside of a narrowly defined performance box. Not exactly an assignment that requires the grace and glory of an uber-pilot.

A typical experienced ATP may perform a walk-around on an aircraft for which he is type rated. He looks the airplane over. He sees an attach bolt on a control clevis with a fiberlock nut with the threads of the bolt protruding by one thread only. Is it legal? Is it safe? He's responsible for making that determination...but does he even know what he's looking at? Truth is that most ATP's don't...yet that valueable experience, those mighty 1,500 hours...make him somehow a better candidate?

Hours mean nothing, experience everything. Two pilots may fly a hour, but come away with entirely different experiences. One drones around, flies point to point, and lands...and has little to show for it. The other intensely trains, pushes himself, and comes away much richer for that hour. One has become an hour more experienced, the other has spent an hour looking out the window. I've known many low time pilots with whom I'd trust my family, and many high-time pilots with whom I wouldn't allow my dog to fly.

There's a reason that the ATP is required only for the PIC.

Notably, the original poster has been seen to cry out that all pilots should have the ATP in the cockpit...yet has been quoted saying that he finds two captains in the cockpit to be a "joke." Where does that leave us with his request? Safely able to discount anything he has said, or will say further, as a complete waste of time.
 

nismo611

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Apr 22, 2008
Posts
90
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Au contraire. Not just the regionals, but the majors have a long history of putting very low time pilots in the right seat. Pilots with very little experience moving out of a FE seat, and over the years some firms have hired extremely low time pilots into large aircraft with regularity.

The military routinely moves 260 to 300 hour pilots into large equipment, high sped small equipment, and everything in between. It's standard faire throughout the world to have very low time pilots in everything from a Dash 8 to a 737 on up. The truth is that where for years a pilot in the US might require five thousand hours to get in a 737...a pilot in europe might require 300 or less. Even in the cases where the pilot here required five thousand to be competitive enough to apply, the captain with whom he'd be sitting might very well have hired on at 300 hours, himself...with no other outside experience.

I'm all for experience, and have been preaching it for a long time. However, an ATP is no guarantee of experience, or skill. The ATP issued in the United States has become somewhat of a joke internaitonally, and is often referred to as a joke. It means very little, and with no logbook verification or investigation any more, it no longer represents validation of one's experience, either. To suggest that an ATP indicates something, anything, about an airman is in error. Perhaps it shows that the applicant can read a book and take a test after having read the answers...and visit a certificate mill to get his paperwork done...but doesn't signify anything more than that.

A regional airline job is an entry level job with a relatively low demand on the pilot...who flies inside of a narrowly defined performance box. Not exactly an assignment that requires the grace and glory of an uber-pilot.

A typical experienced ATP may perform a walk-around on an aircraft for which he is type rated. He looks the airplane over. He sees an attach bolt on a control clevis with a fiberlock nut with the threads of the bolt protruding by one thread only. Is it legal? Is it safe? He's responsible for making that determination...but does he even know what he's looking at? Truth is that most ATP's don't...yet that valueable experience, those mighty 1,500 hours...make him somehow a better candidate?

Hours mean nothing, experience everything. Two pilots may fly a hour, but come away with entirely different experiences. One drones around, flies point to point, and lands...and has little to show for it. The other intensely trains, pushes himself, and comes away much richer for that hour. One has become an hour more experienced, the other has spent an hour looking out the window. I've known many low time pilots with whom I'd trust my family, and many high-time pilots with whom I wouldn't allow my dog to fly.

There's a reason that the ATP is required only for the PIC.

Notably, the original poster has been seen to cry out that all pilots should have the ATP in the cockpit...yet has been quoted saying that he finds two captains in the cockpit to be a "joke." Where does that leave us with his request? Safely able to discount anything he has said, or will say further, as a complete waste of time.


Wow first off I would like to begin by asking if that was english? abug are you retarded? Excellent spelling and grammar......

Well in retort to low time pilots in Europe and the military, the applicants have to selected with an aptitude for flying in both cases. Not just an American Express, Visa, Mastercard, or a fist full of cash.

Nobody ever said that having an ATP guarantees skill, but it does ensure that people have more experience than commercial MEL standards which are pretty low. Your log book is still audited by the way, now I know you are usually there every time anyone gets issued a new certificate but you must have dosed off on that last couple hundred. Maybe you were on FI bitching about things, maybe you were writing a check to one of your ex wives for children that despise you, or maybe you were out actually working telling everyone around you how awesome you were. I just don't know avbug.

Finally in my post about the flight in the regional airline which I do often, my compliant was that even with two captains they were still really rough with the aircraft large power changes often, spoilers extended to level off, and just overall lousy piloting. There is plenty to be said for experience, maybe you flying under power lines made you the best ever but I seriously doubt it. You also said in a post that being a flight instructor was not valuable time, I suppose you never bothered to teach, well I beg to argue that and so would many others. avbug I am sorry that there are people like you in this community please retire go to Florida get yourself a retirement trailer in Sarasota many people would thank you for that.
 
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