Consessions vs furloughs

[michael707767]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Et Al

We may very well be headed that direction, Michael. Don't get me wrong, if the company needs help I'll be the first one in line. We will never know if the company needs help or not. They will never let us see the true numbers. Last time, the Delta pilots were sold a bill of goods, and the company turned around in record fashion. When the company is losing money, they want concessions. When times are good, and we want it back, they tell us to go pound sand. As the son of an accountant, i can tell you that there are many ways to legally cook books. The company has an agenda right now. They want government help, again, and IMO they want consolidation. To get both, the books have to look as bad as possible. Of course this is the perfect chance to take a shot at labor as well.

If I may, in physical terms, what do you mean with the statement,"we need to get over the idea that what we make has zero impact on the bottom line."

C,
I agree with almost everything you said. We will never see the real numbers. Unfortunately, there is an unhealthy relationship between management and ALPA. Thats too bad and I wish it was not that way. I blame both sides for that though. Yes there are many ways to legally cook the books. I went to the road show in PTC the other day, and I have no doubt Fred put the absolute worst spin he could on everything. However, even if things are not as bad as he said, things right now are still very bad.

To answer your last question, unfortunately, I think many Delta pilots feel like what we make has no impact on the profits or losses of the company. It is true that as a percentage of total costs, pilot pay is not as big a factor as some people make it out to be. But, the total costs of the pilots are a factor, however big or small.

 

[enigma]

Re: Re: Re: Re: csmith

I guess we are done since you fail to address the meat of the issue an only choose to assert your rights--sure sign of no aurgment. I don't know how to make my posts more clear, I cited examples, I explained in detail. I don't know what part of a "reasoned debate" you really expect I guess, perhaps the incorrect choice of a word while I am typing at a mile a minute. Good one. Center in on the typing skills, kinda like the guys who make an argument of misspelling. Do you have any rebuttals to my explanations or not?

Sorry, Dude. I ignore typo's, misspellings, etc. Your words are not typos. You used specific words, words mean things to quote that distinguished American, Rush Limbaugh. I guess that you really didn't mean to type insane, you must have meant to use crazy.

I have addressed the meat of the issue. I started the string. The issue is that some of you say (paraphrase) that giving concessions to avoid furloughs doesn't matter because DAL has room for only so many pilots, and the concessions won't ensure jobs. On the other hand, DAL is entertaining the idea of starting up a low cost subsidiary to fly mainline size aircraft.The disparity between those two facts is the issue. Any other is stuff you threw in to muddy the water.

I'm done
8N

 

[csmith]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: csmith

Sorry, Dude. I ignore typo's, misspellings, etc. Your words are not typos. You used specific words, words mean things to quote that distinguished American, Rush Limbaugh. I guess that you really didn't mean to type insane, you must have meant to use crazy.

I have addressed the meat of the issue. I started the string. The issue is that some of you say (paraphrase) that giving concessions to avoid furloughs doesn't matter because DAL has room for only so many pilots, and the concessions won't ensure jobs. On the other hand, DAL is entertaining the idea of starting up a low cost subsidiary to fly mainline size aircraft.The disparity between those two facts is the issue. Any other is stuff you threw in to muddy the water.

I'm done
8N

Rush Limbaugh? I guess that explains a lot. Another pilot who thinks republicans are on our side. No wonder.

As for "starting the string", starting a thread with incorrect information does not make you correct in your assumptions. As yet another example, a deal was worked out to pay pilots a certain number of hours a month to stay home with no obligation. The union thought it might be a way to mitigate furloughs. The company said it would not. Here we are still furloughing. Paying pilots less money does not mitigate furloughs here at Delta.

Now for the LCC. I have addressed this as well. I don't know where you get your information, but how about this piece from Fred Reid--I'm sure you know who he is:"

"We expect to ask for no hourly rate concessions from the Delta pilots who fly our new LCC operation. We aren't sure how we are going to handle the flight attendants."


It would appear as if they not only plan on using Delta pilots--for Publisher--but they plan on paying them Delta rates. One thing we may lose, as he specifically said pay rates, is work rules. Although you and I have not discussed this, it is this arena where Delta loses money over other airlines the most, IMO. I routinely fly a 4 day trip for about 17-18 hours of "hard time", yet I am paid for 5:30 per day. This provision was put into the contract to ensure efficiency. Yet the company has not scheduled 22 or more hours of hard flying. Bottom line, you may see a LCC, but it will probably have built in efficiencies rather than lower pay rates. Of course, management has led us astray before...

There is much more, but I'll leave it here as this is post has just been more fodder to muddy the water. Sorry to have offended you.

C

--still thinks the idea of tying pilot salary to company performance adversely affects safety--thereby making the idea insane

 

[csmith]

Re: carrier

Frankly, I do not think that your contract even deals with Comair creating an new company as a partner.

As Delta Inc. owns Comair, anything that company does must be done within the framework of the Delta pilots' PWA. I see where you are headed with this, but they can't go there with larger aircraft. Well, there might be a very obscure way, but it must not be cost effective as it doesn't appear that the company is headed in that direction--especially with 1,000 pilots that will have to be dealt with at one time or another.

C

--can only pray he used the words "cost effective" correctly

 

[csmith]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Et Al

To answer your last question, unfortunately, I think many Delta pilots feel like what we make has no impact on the profits or losses of the company. It is true that as a percentage of total costs, pilot pay is not as big a factor as some people make it out to be. But, the total costs of the pilots are a factor, however big or small.

I agree with you that there are some extremists. Some might even consider me one of them. That being said, IMO, it is a cost of doing business. As of now, there is no way aorund pilots, you have to have them to operate an airline. Furthermore, I recently read where Mr. Mullin has been quoted as saying that we are consistently cash flow positive. That is certainly a step in the right direction. Then the "write offs" step in. It seems as if I remember TK saying he was an accountant. Maybe he can shed some light on how our accounting practices can affect the bottom line.

I guess I am just not to the point yet of being ready to open up our contract for changes in compensation. I am certainly aware that cuts will help the bottom line, and gouges would help it even more. As soon as it would be in writing, however, I would not be at all surprised to see the economy turn around and profits start rolling in, and more pilots furloughed due to this FM or another yet undisclosed FM. In this manner, I disagree with you that the union has a hand in the employee/employer relationship. The early 90's took care of the Ron Allen era, and the infamous quote from LM took care of his era. Good faith seems to be lopsided at this company, IMO.

 

[michael707767]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Et Al

I I guess I am just not to the point yet of being ready to open up our contract for changes in compensation. I am certainly aware that cuts will help the bottom line, and gouges would help it even more. As soon as it would be in writing, however, I would not be at all surprised to see the economy turn around and profits start rolling in, and more pilots furloughed due to this FM or another yet undisclosed FM.

I am not ready to open up for wage concessions either. And frankly, even given the current circumstances, I don't think we are overpaid. But, I do think we will need to address some productivity issues, even once things start to turn around. If you want, I can expand on that later.

 

[csmith]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Et Al

I am not ready to open up for wage concessions either. And frankly, even given the current circumstances, I don't think we are overpaid. But, I do think we will need to address some productivity issues, even once things start to turn around. If you want, I can expand on that later.

I hear you. I eluded to some that in the post 2 or 3 above this one. Yes, I would be interested as I have some thoughts of my own. Even minimizing credit would have a very large impact on the pilot costs of the bottom line, IMO. As a regional puke, I kind of "grew up" with the 8 hour days, multiple legs. I actually prefer them, as long as the "down time" doesn't suffer. You work that hard, you need rest--while on a trip and off.

C

 

[michael707767]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Et Al

I hear you. I eluded to some that in the post 2 or 3 above this one. Yes, I would be interested as I have some thoughts of my own. Even minimizing credit would have a very large impact on the pilot costs of the bottom line, IMO. As a regional puke, I kind of "grew up" with the 8 hour days, multiple legs. I actually prefer them, as long as the "down time" doesn't suffer. You work that hard, you need rest--while on a trip and off.

C

First of all, let me say that I realize anything which increases productivity reduces the number of jobs, a very tough thing to do right now. But I still think it will have to be addressed eventually. IMHO minimizing credit time is something the company has to do. There may be some scheduling rules we could change to help accomodate that, but it is still up to them to build better trips. A couple of my ideas. One, why do we have several different catagories of 737s? At Southwest, the same pilots fly everything from the 737-200 to the -700. I see no reason we could not do the same here. Two, streamline the pay scales. Why not have a single rate for all narrow bodies for example? I know guys who have flown the 73S, M88,727, and 738 in five years, each time chasing a small pay raise. Thats a lot of money spent on training, and a lot of time during which the pilot was not productive. If all the narrowbodies paid the same, I'd be willing to bet people would rather not go to training if they are not getting a pay raise. I think the same could apply to the 764, M11, and 777. If all three paid the same, there is not much motivation to move. The last thing I think could be addressed, and this will have to wait for the furloughs to be over, is a higher cap.

 

[Publishers]

carry over

The fact is that in a technological type industry, there tends to carry forth things from earlier that may or may not be appropriate today.

I have often thought that having airlines look to the Railway Labor Act as a symbol of that fact. Regardless of any good points in it, the name itself says it all.

The various changes in pay for all the types is another sort of old deal. While there does have to be differences from the standpoint that regionals have entered the jet age and it make no market sense within the economic structure for a 50 passenger jet to pay the same as a 757, for the most part, there is no difference in flying one commecial aircraft than another.

As things tend to work out in this business, the guy with the seniority gets to pick the cushier flights with the most time off and often gets paid more to do it. In short, he is less productive from the company standpoint and paid more.

As I have said often, there is too much range in pilot pay. The top is paid too much for too little and the bottom is paid too little for too much. There is no balance and like Microsoft, they just keep adding things on old rather than wiping the old off and doing each thing anew. It is more important to not be perceived as giving things up rather than just relooking in the new light.