Conducting a poll on your employer(s)

[TIS]

I'm planning on writing a piece about what happens when the FAA decides you've been a bad little airman.

What I need is some information from as many of you as would care to share your thoughts. What I'm interested in is what, if anything, your employer would do to assist you in your defense against FAA charges.

I know that at the airline level defense of a pilot so charged is assisted in a variety of ways by the Union if there's one on the property. But what about those of you in corporate or fractional flying. Do your companies respond to FAA meddling in your affairs with a pink slip or with an attorney to help you?

I would appreciate your input. I have a feeling there's a lot of not-so-nice stuff to know about just where you stand if you make a mistake. I'd like to know what those things are.

I will not mention anyone by name, by company, or even by allusion to corporate culture in what I write. I just need to know what you all would be facing if you got busted.

If you'd rather e-mail me in private I would welcome your help that way too. Please use [email protected] for your replies!

Thanks in advance for your help!

TIS

 

[bobbysamd]

Another article idea

Welcome back!

How 'bout writing an article and/or post comparing and contrasting your hiring experiences in the early '90s to today? You wrote some great stuff about it on the old board. Your insights on that topic would be valuable and insightful. My .02 opinion is a lot of people don't believe that today's tough times are history repeating itself.

Once more, welcome back!

 

[hyper]

Hey TIS. Where ya been? You going to stick around a while?

 

[350DRIVER]

Tis-
First and foremost, a very welcome back to you...... Having flown in the 135 "world" for a little over two years now I have seen a few bad apples get tagged by the FAA. Our company pretty much uses the same philosophy as the FAR's.. IF you "bust" a far or something that is written within our ops specs then you pretty much better be able to "justify" your side and prove your case without a doubt in anyones mind. ( I have yet to have this great opportunity and hope I never have to sit in front of the director of ops or chief pilot and "explain") Our company pretty much has a "0" tolerance rule put into place - Obviously a very good aviation attorney could probably get you out of a violation and maybee even help you get away with murder pertaining to the busting of a FAR however atleast with our company you can count on your employment being terminated immediately if you were found to be at fault (no and's if's but's about it or questions asked). The FAR's and ops specs are put in place for one reason, to keep a pilot out of trouble, minimize risk and vulnerabilty, and to better enchance safety for all involved, etc, etc, etc,....

What I'm interested in is what, if anything, your employer would do to assist you in your defense against FAA charges.

Very unlikely and not probable UNLESS you can prove without a doubt in anyones mind that it was NOT your fault and you were "rail-roaded" and safety of the flight was not put into limbo as a result of Y O U R actions.... - The 135 pilots that I have seen get violated by the FAA were also terminated by there employer if safety was compromised at any point due to there actions. Not a very forgiving profession to say the least.


Pilots are human beings, they make mistakes- let's just hope that we make the mistakes while "off duty"... Easy enough huh?!


c h e e r s

3 5 0

 

[El Duderino]

I am intersted in what some of these incidents might be. Without putting a 7500 on the thread, I hope to hear some stories or "over heard's."
I have a feeling my company would help me as much as possible. Especially since I don't have a reputation as being behind the ball. They most likely would not be able to afford paying a whole bunch of money, such as $2500 and up. I do beleive they would be very resourceful with any of the people that work for us. If an employee had been warned once before but not cited, and was a runt, then a ticket would be met with a termination. I believe this to be fair.
I am sure a decent lawyer retainer would be much more than $2500. AOPA offers an insurance program for this. From several sources and two close friends I have heard first hand that it isn't worth $hit. I cancelled my order when I called asking for advice on a scum bag freight operator out of New Mexico that smeard my PRIA records. They weren't able to offer any help, and I have yet to resolve the problem.
What an intersting thread. TIS I look forward to anything you may have to offer.
peas
dude

 

[mar]

I've got nothing to hide

I already submitted this on that "Loss of separation" thread a few days ago.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's my story:

I'm holding at the IAF after a missed approach, non-radar. Company airplane inbound to same fix. He's cleared to 8000. We're cleared to climb to 7000 and then intercept the airway outbound to our alternate.

We're very busy: running checklists, talking to ATC and company, reprogramming the GPS.

I can't remember who did it, but one of us put 8000 in the altitude alerter.

So we bug out for the alternate (and we have company traffic on the TCAS the whole time). ATC says, Say position.

We're 22 miles NE of the beacon at 8000.

You can guess what happens next. I get the request to call the phone number on the ground.

I do so.

Since there's no radar the supervisor has to go by our reported positions. He determines "no loss of seperation."

I figure no harm, no foul.

I go home.

Two weeks later, my boss calls me into the office and wants to know what happened (FAA investigating).

Long story short (I'm trying, really): I get a Letter of Warning in my file--should be removed in two years. The FO received nothing!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The reaction from my boss: He put in a good word for me with the Asst. POI who was conducting the investigation.

He told him that I was a ground instructor and check airman and that in almost three years of flying for the company I had never been known to deviate from ATC clearances or company policy.

I appreciated the gesture. I didn't feel like I was fed to the sharks. I feel like his statement of support may have mitigated some harsher sanction.

However, I knew I was up against a Letter of Warning and not a violation. I did not have an attorney and I don't think the company would've hired one for me. If the certificate action actually came to a suspension I think they would've just given me the time off without pay.

A few thoughts:

*A "zero-tolerance" policy is a bad policy. It's easy, when you're relatively new to the game, to sit back and shake your head and wonder how stupid some people can be. Good pilots make mistakes all the time. Sometimes, a good pilot can serve the same company very well over the course of many, many years and then one day he gets snagged. In this case a "zero-tolerance" policy is just bad management. Loyalty *should* inspire loyalty.

*I had another point for the FO that originally posted the "Loss of Separation" thread (I wonder if he's still reading?): In my example, we had several 'exchange of controls'. When I reported level at 8000 the FO was flying. My point is: The error was the error of the crew (both of our faults). The responsibility, however, was mine and mine alone. Therefore, I received the letter, not the FO. I think you may be in a similiar situation.

*Though my situation was resolved by the ATC supervisor on duty and he was satisfied there was no loss of separation I have pondered long and hard how and why was I being investigated? The only answer I can come up with is that the date was Sept 14, 2001--the day *after* the flight ban was lifted and it seems as if there was a fed at every controller position that day.

I apologize for all the tangents. I hope my case can help someone make a better decision one day.

 

[350DRIVER]

*A "zero-tolerance" policy is a bad policy. It's easy, when you're relatively new to the game, to sit back and shake your head and wonder how stupid some people can be.

Obviously a "zero-tolerance" policy is not always applicable in all situations, yours being a prime and perfect example. Ask yourself one question "was the safety of your flight compromised in any way, shape, or form".??" I would have to say "no" without even a second thought. Loss of required seperation was not even busted, sounds like more of an "unlucky" situation for you more than anything else. From your posting I cannot see how a policy of this magnitude could apply to you, however for the most part I strongly disagree with you about this policy not being in the best interest of everyone involved in "some cases" IF an investigation FINDS that safety was compromised due to the pilot's actions which could include carelessness, recklessness, etc, etc, etc...- In these cases I do believe that anything less than a zero-tolerance policy is giving someone a "free ride", "get out of jail pass", and in my opinion is prolonging an accident that is in the wings and waiting to happen.- The NTSB has (just a few) fatal accident reports where IF employment would have been terminated after a previous incident and a zero-tolerance policy applied it would have saved a few lives. (food for thought)

Really depends on the situation and many other variables.

c h e e r s

3 5 0

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Re: I've got nothing to hide

I already submitted this on that "Loss of separation" thread a few days ago.
Long story short (I'm trying, really): I get a Letter of Warning in my file--should be removed in two years. The FO received nothing!

*I had another point for the FO that originally posted the "Loss of Separation" thread (I wonder if he's still reading?): In my example, we had several 'exchange of controls'. When I reported level at 8000 the FO was flying. My point is: The error was the error of the crew (both of our faults). The responsibility, however, was mine and mine alone. Therefore, I received the letter, not the FO. I think you may be in a similiar situation.

How often does this sort of thing happen? Seems to me that the FAA's position on something like this would, more often than not, be that since it's a two pilot operation both pilots are at fault. True, it's ultimately the Captain's responsibility, but I'm surprised the FO didn't face FAA action as well. Does the FAA typically go after both pilots or does the Captain usually bear the responsibility alone?

 

[mar]

Interesting timing

Wow. You know how to pick 'em.

The 14th is my second anniversary of that bust and the letter should be removed.

All I can tell you is what the Fed told me, "As PIC of a 121 flight I have to hold you to a higher standard than your average Joe Sixpack in a 210."

He said that if the exact same thing happened with a private pilot at the controls of 210 he would've let them slide.

All said and done, I felt lucky to get off with a letter of warning.

Which reminds me: I need to check and see if they really did pull that sucker from my file.

Thanks. Fly safe.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Re: Interesting timing

All I can tell you is what the Fed told me, "As PIC of a 121 flight I have to hold you to a higher standard than your average Joe Sixpack in a 210."

Very understandable. I think I read somewhere that, when determining a course of action, the FAA takes into account the experience level of the pilot. Having said that, I still wonder about the FO's liability. Considering that the PIC is the proverbial boss-man, I wonder whether the FAA ever goes after the SICs for altitude busts and whatnot. Part of me thinks, "No reason for me to hang alone for a mistake both of us made.", but a bigger part of me thinks, "Better for one guy to get in trouble than two." Probably all comes down to the individual case and/or individual Fed doing the investigation. Who knows.