Complex / High Perf Q.

[Badger]

1) As a CFI training a student to obtain his/her high-perf. OR complex (or both)... can the student log this dual as PIC?

2) Can a rated & endorsed high-perf/complex pilot utilize a NON-highperf/complex pilot as a safety pilot?

I've read the article in flight training, I don't think that explaination by the lawyer would hold up well, I don't think Rod Machado's got his dookie together on that one.

let's hear some opinions.

 

[bobbysamd]

Logging high-performance/complex time

I think the answer is "yes" to both. I always logged PIC and dual received for my students who were checking out in single-engine high-peformance/complex airplanes. They were holders of Private certificates with single-engine ratings. So, being rated in such airplanes, I felt that they could get the PIC. Of course, if I was training them in multis, they only got dual received until they were rated.

The high-performance/complex pilot under the hood is PIC because he/she is sole manipulator of the controls. The safety pilot gets PIC for his/her safety pilot time.

 

[cjh]

1. Yes, if the student is otherwise rated for the aircraft. 61.51(e) allows logging of pilot-in-command flight time as long as the pilot is rated in the aircraft. Endorsements are not ratings. The two you reference are required to ACT as PIC but not to LOG PIC time.

2. Your safety pilot does not need a high perf or complex endorsement unless that individual is going to ACT as PIC. As an SIC the endorsements are not needed (and of course, the safety pilot is under no obligation to log the time at all).

Here are the appropriate references in the regs, along with a Q&A from the AFS board's web site. Hope this helps.

cj

61.51(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person --
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

61.51(f) Logging second-in-command flight time.
A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of § 61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

91.109(b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless --
(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.

And finally, from the AFS board's FAQ:

QUESTION: Thank you for your letter dated April 20, 1999, to the Office of the Chief Counsel, Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), regarding the logging of pilot-in-command time. Specifically, whether a pilot needs to have the appropriate 14 CFR section 61.31 endorsements before he or she can properly log pilot-in-command time under 14 CFR section 61.51(e).

ANSWER:14 CFR section 61.51(e) governs the logging of pilot-in-command time. This section provides, in pertinent part, that a private pilot may log pilot-in-command time for that flight time during which that person is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated. (Emphasis added)

The term "rated," as used under 14 CFR section 61.51(e), refers to the pilot holding the appropriate aircraft ratings (category, class, and type, if a type rating is required). These ratings are listed under 14 CFR section 61.5 and are placed on the pilot certificate.

Therefore, based on the scenario given to Mr. Lynch, a private pilot may log pilot-in-command time, in a complex or high performance airplane, for those portions of the flight when he or she is the sole manipulator of the controls because the aircraft being operated is single-engine land and the private pilot holds a single-engine land rating. Note, while the private pilot may log this time as pilot-in-command time in accordance with 14 CFR section 61.51(e), he or she may not act as the pilot in command unless he or she has the appropriate endorsement as required under 14 CFR section 61.31.

14 CFR section 61.31 requires a person to have an endorsement from an authorized instructor before he or she may act as pilot in command of certain aircraft (a complex airplane, a high performance airplane, a pressurized airplane capable of operating at high altitudes, or a tailwheel airplane). These endorsements are not required to log pilot-in-command time under 14 CFR section 61.51(e).

As you stated in your letter, there is a distinction between acting as pilot in command and logging pilot-in-command time. In order to act as pilot in command, the pilot who has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight, a person must be properly rated in the aircraft and be properly rated and authorized to conduct the flight. In order to log pilot-in-command time, a person who is the sole manipulator of the controls only needs to be properly rated in the aircraft.

 

[Timebuilder]

Initially, my confusion, and perhaps many others' confusion, is the difference between being able to LOG pic time versus ACT AS pic. In oder to ACT AS pic, you need the endorsement.

 

[cjh]

You're right, logging vs acting has got to have been confusing for every pilot, at some point. For anyone still walking in the fog, you can't beat Doc's FAR Pages. There's an entire section on logging vs acting, complete with examples.

http://www.propilot.com/doc/logging2.html