Compass gets its first plane from...

[flap operator]

MESABA. You guessed it! The whipsaw has just branched into its 4th victim. Spongebob Jinglepants (aka, John Spanjers CEO of Mesaba Airlines) anounced today that NWA intends to take a CRJ operated by Mesaba and move it to the Compass subsidiary (the regional RJ subsidiary that is intended to save jobs and provide jobs at the expense of other jobs).

Well, now there's a business plan that makes sense, 2 regionals operating a CRJ each. Thanks mainline for letting this happen. Red tail brotherly love... my hairy a$$!!



FO

 

[RJP]

Obviously I missed this one. Who is Compass? A Mesaba alter-ego? Not a good thing.

 

[cwebster2]

Obviously I missed this one. Who is Compass? A Mesaba alter-ego? Not a good thing.

no, its the new NWA small jet provider aka "SJet". I dont think they can operate unless the NWA TA is approved, but they seem to be betting on it passing... Its FlyI's old certificate and management also, iirc.

 

[pipejockey]

Funny how good ole management from flyI got themselves jobs right quick. I wonder how all the labor from flyI is doing.

I HATE MANAGEMENT!!

 

[IHateMgmt]

Funny how good ole management from flyI got themselves jobs right quick. I wonder how all the labor from flyI is doing.

I HATE MANAGEMENT!!

Now you're starting to see things my way.

 

[DTW320]

Dear Hairy Ass:

How, exactly, did "mainline let this happen"?

Thanks!

 

[McNugget]

Funny how good ole management from flyI got themselves jobs right quick. I wonder how all the labor from flyI is doing.

I HATE MANAGEMENT!!

Furloughed, and then furloughed again!

 

[saabservant]

DTW320:
Are you really that ignorant? Or are you just not paying attention?
Your negotiators allowed this to achieve bargaining "credits" elsewhere in the TA, while allowing a place for furloughs to go to, if desired.
They could have protected scope, and saved ALL 51-76 seat aircraft at mainline, OR they could have ensured that those aircraft only go to airlink operators already in place (MSA, 9e), but noooo. They did not have the balls to hold the line. This meets the needs of the top third at mainline, who could care less about erosion of standards of pay and working conditions of junior pilots at mainline, or the airlinks.

All this, while all of alpa tells us at mesaba: "Hold the line, fight the pay-to-play, whipsaw, outsourcing games"!
Kiss my A**! What are you going to do when you lose half of your feed in three weeks? Coming out of bankruptcy anytime soon?
You selfish pricks....
Our jobs and careers are nothing but bargaining credits to your mec and neg. committee.

 

[N7167L]

Gentlemen, I'm a newbie... What does 'whipsaw' mean?

 

[DTW320]

DTW320:
Are you really that ignorant? Or are you just not paying attention?
Your negotiators allowed this to achieve bargaining "credits" elsewhere in the TA, while allowing a place for furloughs to go to, if desired.
They could have protected scope, and saved ALL 51-76 seat aircraft at mainline, OR they could have ensured that those aircraft only go to airlink operators already in place (MSA, 9e), but noooo. They did not have the balls to hold the line. This meets the needs of the top third at mainline, who could care less about erosion of standards of pay and working conditions of junior pilots at mainline, or the airlinks.

All this, while all of alpa tells us at mesaba: "Hold the line, fight the pay-to-play, whipsaw, outsourcing games"!
Kiss my A**! What are you going to do when you lose half of your feed in three weeks? Coming out of bankruptcy anytime soon?
You selfish pricks....
Our jobs and careers are nothing but bargaining credits to your mec and neg. committee.

Our MEC is responsible for NWA buying the Flyi certificate and using an RJ from Mesaba, that I paid for by the way, to fly a route to keep the certificate active?

Dude, RELAX....Its a TA... Why don't you tell me by what % the TA was approved. What? It hasn't passed Memrat yet?

As for "protecting scope", please tell me what major legacy airline has a scope clause that allows them to fly ALL 51-76 seat jets. Thanks! While your at it, please tell me which major will have a better Scope clause if this TA passes.

But wait! Lets use some more of your logic.....NWAALPA should have used "negotiating credits" to demand that all flying 76 seats and below goes to existing Airlink carriers. Yeah, please give me an additional X % paycut so we can finance, in negotiations, our DEMAND that NW give the flying to Mesaba. Your MEC is for what again?

What are you going to do when you lose half of your feed in three weeks?

I'M not gonna do anything. I assume that NWA management, who makes those decisions, will switch the feed to another carrier.

Our jobs and careers are nothing but bargaining credits to your mec and neg. committee.

Sorry to sound cold dude, but as we fight for our very survival, when, exactly, did it become NWAALPA's duty to fight Mesaba's battles for them?
Using your same logic, let me ask you a question....Why aren't lots of NW furloughees flying for Mesaba? I mean, if you guys cared about "our jobs and careers" you would have "had the balls to hold the line" and demand that Mesaba offer employment to all NW furloughed pilots right????

You "selfish pricks" !!!!

 

[DTW320]

They could have protected scope, and saved ALL 51-76 seat aircraft at mainline

So we could have actually IMPROVED our scope clause while in bankruptcy? (it's allowed 55 seaters at code-share partners since 1998, plus the 69 seat AVRO's)
And if we did that....ya know...had the balls to hold the line and all that... and TOOK BACK the 51-76 seat flying, including your AVRO's, at mainline, THAT would have helped you at Mesaba??

Please let me know who has IMPROVED their contract in CH11 negotiations.

So who's ignorant or not paying attention???

 

[saabservant]

"I assume NWA management, who makes those decisions, will switch the feed to another carrier".

Oh, really? nwa included? Do you understand the meaning of "struck work"?
Of scab flying?

And no, we don't expect nwa mec to secure anything for us, our mec (which is unified, by the way, no fistfights yet) can handle mgmt just fine, thank you.
Just asking for Mclain and Woerth to stop blowing sunshine up everyone's butt about "holding the line", fighting "pay to play", and the virtues of "brand scope".
Face it, your neg. committee has sold out the junior dc-9 folks, and all of the long-serving mesaba pilots by allowing a third airlink carrier, in exchange for credit elsewhere in your ta....

Any nwa furloughees were welcome here, even if YOUR mgmt. did not allow a formal placement program (who do you think is really running mesaba, anyway? Spanjers is just a messenger boy...

 

[saabservant]

It's not a matter of improvements, it's allowing mgmt. to set up a subsidiary, expressly designed to HARM the jobs and careers of your junior pilots and the airlink pilots, just to mitigate the damage elsewhere in your TA.
Your neg. cmte. could have allowed the avros to stay, allowed different aircraft, up to 36, or taken back the exemption. We would have understood all of those scenarios.
But allowing a third airlink, with the coming slam on our contracts, jobs, and so-called "careers"? No....

 

[DTW320]

Any nwa furloughees were welcome here, even if YOUR mgmt. did not allow a formal placement program (who do you think is really running mesaba, anyway? Spanjers is just a messenger boy...

Waitaminute....you said that we failed to "have the balls to hold the line" but when it comes to YOU guys at Mesaba your answer is: " Well, Gee, they didn't allow it....sorry". What a hypocrite!!!

BTW, a third airlink has been allowed for a long time before this TA. But you knew that right?

You are the one who said that we should have held the line on all 51-76 seaters at mainline. THAT would be an improvement to our contract. Again, please tell me who has ever negotiated a major improvement to their contract in CH11.

Your neg. cmte. could have allowed the avros to stay, allowed different aircraft, up to 36, or taken back the exemption. We would have understood all of those scenarios.

So lemme get this straight.....you say that we have sold our junior folks down the river. THEN you say that we should have used negotiating capital to give Mesaba 36 AVRO replacements, that I assume you would expect to be flown by Mesaba pilots, INSTEAD of setting something up that our furloughees could fly as Captains. Are you clueless or what????? Please tell me who should be a priority for the NWA ALPA negotiators: NW pilots or Mesaba pilots. Thanks!!

I notice that you elected NOT to give me an answer about who will have a better scope clause if this TA passes either. Lemme know K?

 

[redflyer65]

DTW320...Explain to me why Northwest pilots couldn't fly these 'Compass' planes at the same rate and work rules that Compass would have. Yea, maybe it would be a B-scale, but its better than whats gonna happen to these junior Northwest guys. They are gonna be sold down the river for the Profit sharing, etc. then be sold to Mesa in less than 3 years. I don't care if PCL or XJ ever see a 70 seater, but this is a complete sell out, and you know it. I hope you vote no. Keep these planes on the Northwest certificate and fly them with Northwest pilots. Do it for the same rate. What is managements response to that?

 

[TurboAWD]

As for "protecting scope", please tell me what major legacy airline has a scope clause that allows them to fly ALL 51-76 seat jets. Thanks!

CO, if I recall corectly. Not that they (not being in Ch11) are a fair comparison, but you asked.

I realize it's every man for himself, but I will say that scope was something that guys won in the past, and giving it away will permantly damage this career. It will be virtually impossible to get back, and you will give management a bigger stick for all future negotiations.

The TA isn't all bad (retention of work rules), but I still think it is pretty poor (DC plan stinks, scope, no credit/snapback for termination of DB plan, etc)

Turbo

 

[saabservant]

Dtw320

Uh, and how much leverage do we have to make demands of YOUR mec, and YOUR mgmt? NONE.

Great scope clause for you, but YOU are not the one being furloughed, or whipsawed by compass to accept the lowest pay and conditions in the entire industry.
In case you didn't know, nwa completely controls mesaba, which has no ability to do business elsewhere. My view, not shared by you, is that your mec and mgmt are responsible for what happens here, too. Our very existence is caused by mainline groups, like yours, allowing outsourcing in exchange for contract gains, or fewer contract losses.
Not much has changed...
And thanks for the clarification about throwing the avro pilots overboard. How refreshing to hear the truth, instead of the usual kumbaya.

Early show tomorrow, got to provide that cheap feed for you, at least for a couple more weeks.....enjoy your pension, if you get to keep it. I wonder if anyone at your airlinks will shed a tear?

 

[DTW320]

CO, if I recall corectly. Not that they (not being in Ch11) are a fair comparison, but you asked.

I realize it's every man for himself, but I will say that scope was something that guys won in the past, and giving it away will permantly damage this career. It will be virtually impossible to get back, and you will give management a bigger stick for all future negotiations.

The TA isn't all bad (retention of work rules), but I still think it is pretty poor (DC plan stinks, scope, no credit/snapback for termination of DB plan, etc)

Turbo

I think CO's scope clause says they own 60 seats and above with no limit whatsoever on 59 seats and below. Better than our CH11 TA but this TA has better scope than UAL and USAir....the other 2 BK vets and I dare say better than the soon to be made public DAL TA.

When scope was won in the past, as you say, we were not in CH11. Not using that for justification for giving away the farm but a lot of people are incorrectly assuming that we have the same leverage as in normal section 6 negotiations. THIS IS NOT NORMAL SECTION 6 NEGOTIATIONS. This is CH11 negotiations and, like it or not, and admit it or not, we do not have the same leverage.

 

[catIIIc]

I think CO's scope clause says they own 60 seats and above with no limit whatsoever on 59 seats and below. Better than our CH11 TA but this TA has better scope than UAL and USAir....the other 2 BK vets and I dare say better than the soon to be made public DAL TA.

When scope was won in the past, as you say, we were not in CH11. Not using that for justification for giving away the farm but a lot of people are incorrectly assuming that we have the same leverage as in normal section 6 negotiations. THIS IS NOT NORMAL SECTION 6 NEGOTIATIONS. This is CH11 negotiations and, like it or not, and admit it or not, we do not have the same leverage.

CO's scope is 51 seats and above and AA's scope is 51 seats and above except the 25 Eagle 70 seater plus 25 options which have not been exercised yet.

 

[DTW320]

Uh, and how much leverage do we have to make demands of YOUR mec, and YOUR mgmt? NONE.

Great scope clause for you, but YOU are not the one being furloughed, or whipsawed by compass to accept the lowest pay and conditions in the entire industry.
In case you didn't know, nwa completely controls mesaba, which has no ability to do business elsewhere. My view, not shared by you, is that your mec and mgmt are responsible for what happens here, too. Our very existence is caused by mainline groups, like yours, allowing outsourcing in exchange for contract gains, or fewer contract losses.
Not much has changed...
And thanks for the clarification about throwing the avro pilots overboard. How refreshing to hear the truth, instead of the usual kumbaya.

Early show tomorrow, got to provide that cheap feed for you, at least for a couple more weeks.....enjoy your pension, if you get to keep it. I wonder if anyone at your airlinks will shed a tear?

Uh...and how much SENSE would it make for your MEC to make demands of the NWA MEC to get them to, using your own words here, give the AVRO replacements to Mesaba instead of doing something to help furloughed NWA pilots? NONE!!!! I'll ask again, although I'm sure you won't answer, again, but whose interests should the NWA MEC represent? NWA pilots OR Mesaba pilots?

Our very existence is caused by mainline groups, like yours, allowing outsourcing in exchange for contract gains

Absolutely!!! And on behalf of my over 700 furloughed brothers/sisters I advocate giving up those "contract gains" in order to take that flying back to mainline and get them recalled. Lets call a spade a spade: My allegiance will ALWAYS be to fellow NW pilots over Mesaba pilots. Sorry, but it can't be both. Impossible. Gotta be 1 or the other. What? You REALLY think it's reasonable that we should advocate shrinking/not growing mainline so as to help you, at another airline, out? Someone needs a reality check. And BTW, my frozen pension is about the same as the PBGC guarantee so I stand to lose nothing in a termination, unless the PBGC goes insolvent...so shed/don't shed a tear at your discretion.

And thanks for the clarification about throwing the avro pilots overboard. How refreshing to hear the truth, instead of the usual kumbaya.

You obviously haven't been around too long....that 69 seat flying was mainline's BEFORE it was Mesaba's. Yeah, we gave it up a long time ago for other gains elsewhere....gains that are now GONE!!! Bottom line: Excuseeeeee meeeeeeee for wanting furloughed NWA pilots back at mainline even if that hurts Mesaba. You've stumbled on the great paradox of ALPA.....it's every group for itself. Using your logic DAL pilots should seek to cause the liquidation of DAL in order to help out their ALPA bretheren at smaller NWA.

Have a good trip.

 

[nellie2110]

DTW320,

This TA with compass in the picture has one thing written all over it, and that would be can you say "MIDATLANTIC". Page straight out of US Air. They will sell the planes and your fellow pilots to someone for cash. That should be real fun to sort out. I am sure you can ask any Midatlantic guy just how fun.

 

[DTW320]

DTW320,

This TA with compass in the picture has one thing written all over it, and that would be can you say "MIDATLANTIC". Page straight out of US Air. They will sell the planes and your fellow pilots to someone for cash. That should be real fun to sort out. I am sure you can ask any Midatlantic guy just how fun.

Here's NWAALPA's take on it:

FUTURE POTENTIAL SALE OF SJET
Another of ALPA’s concerns regarding management’s original
NewCo proposal was a potential future sale of this subsidiary.
Management’s NewCo proposal not only allowed the
outsourcing of 100-seat aircraft to this subsidiary, it would have
provided no protections for NewCo pilots in the event of an
eventual sale. A future sale of SJet would be less of a threat
because it would not be flying mainline aircraft. However, two
concerns remained: (1) Ensuring that the flow rights (up and
down) remain after a sale, and (2) Not permitting NWA to gain
financial benefit from such a sale before the 77–110-seat aircraft
begin active service at Northwest.

Our concern about a future sale of SJet was based on our
conversations with management officials and the recent
experience at US Airways. Management at US Airways sold
the assets (aircraft) of their newly created division,
MidAtlantic, to Republic Airlines, one of their feeder carriers.
At least half the US Airways pilots flying at MidAtlantic lost
their jobs as a result of the sale. Also, pilots transferring to
Republic were required to resign their US Airways seniority
rights and the flow-up/-down rights were terminated.

To address the lessons learned from the US Airways
experience, the sale of SJet is prohibited before NWA has
at least 10 new 77–110-seat aircraft in service on the
mainline. (NWA must retain more than a 50 percent
ownership stake until that occurs). Additionally, all pilot
positions must continue to be available to laid-off NWA
pilots and the flow agreement must be maintained, even
after the sale of SJet. All pilots of SJet have the right to
transfer to the successor after any such sale with all recall
rights to Northwest intact. If these provisions are not
complied with, or the flow rights are modified or
terminated, the maximum number of permitted 51–76-seat
aircraft reverts to 55 aircraft—a large penalty if NWA is
utilizing more than 55 aircraft at the time of the sale.

 

[Spectre]

Our MEC is responsible for NWA buying the Flyi certificate and using an RJ from Mesaba, that I paid for by the way, to fly a route to keep the certificate active?

Dude, RELAX....Its a TA... Why don't you tell me by what % the TA was approved. What? It hasn't passed Memrat yet?

As for "protecting scope", please tell me what major legacy airline has a scope clause that allows them to fly ALL 51-76 seat jets. Thanks! While your at it, please tell me which major will have a better Scope clause if this TA passes.

But wait! Lets use some more of your logic.....NWAALPA should have used "negotiating credits" to demand that all flying 76 seats and below goes to existing Airlink carriers. Yeah, please give me an additional X % paycut so we can finance, in negotiations, our DEMAND that NW give the flying to Mesaba. Your MEC is for what again?

I'M not gonna do anything. I assume that NWA management, who makes those decisions, will switch the feed to another carrier.


Sorry to sound cold dude, but as we fight for our very survival, when, exactly, did it become NWAALPA's duty to fight Mesaba's battles for them?
Using your same logic, let me ask you a question....Why aren't lots of NW furloughees flying for Mesaba? I mean, if you guys cared about "our jobs and careers" you would have "had the balls to hold the line" and demand that Mesaba offer employment to all NW furloughed pilots right????

You "selfish pricks" !!!!

Well, how can Mesaba hire your furloughed pilots when NWA took away their CRJ's? If Mesaba wasn't growing, how could they hire more pilots? I think it was Pinnicle that got all the CRJ's and hired many furloughed NWA pilots.

 

[heywatchthis]

Who are you mad at? Management or other pilot groups?

As soon as Mesaba got the AVRO's, NW pilots where pissed at Mesaba pilots. Like they had a choice. I guess the Mesaba pilots where suppose to refuse to fly them. And the TA at NW to include COMPASS had to happen, even though the Mesaba pilots are getting gutted. NW pilots needs the best they can get, there in Bankruptcy.

But remember, this is all MANAGEMENT! It sucks but why are the pilots the first to blame pilots.

Management makes the decisions and there AIN'T much you can do about it most of the time.

With anger and emotions comes "It's your fault" attitude.

So whats the solution?
All flying in house at all cost! A scale, B scale, Rj scale, what ever. Then all you can do is BITCH about the senior guys screwed the Jr. guys.

Airtran, JetBlue, Frontier (I think), Southwest, Spirit, SunCountry, USA3000, etc... ALL HAVE NO FEEDERS TO SCREW OR BLAME.

If you think about it, your own regional is your biggest competition. The NW pilots must stay competitive against Delta, Jetblue, and even Mesaba and Pinnacle.

Keep all the flying in HOUSE, and keep all the profits in house too!