Comparison between Fractionals

[JobHuntr]

Hi all,

I'm new to this board and have read most of the frac posts in attempt to research Citation Shares, NetJets, and FlightOptions. Since I have no firends who fly for any of the fractionals, I was hoping to gain a better understanding of the job if any of you with frac experience would be so generous as to donate your time with a response. Also, if you have worked for an airline and one of the fractionals, I would greatly appreciate any comparisons. So here are my questions (for all of the different frac pilots):

1) Domiciles: From reading all of the company websites, I gather that pilots have many cities available as options with the exception of Flexjet? I am not trying for Flexjet for this reason, so if this is wrong, please advise. Why does Citation Shares require pilots to live 90 minutes from a getaway city--is it for reserve coverage, or just a general requirement? Can Flight Options pilots live in any city with air service? On their website it says that relocation is not required for pilots, but nothing more. With NetJets' getaways, are all domiciles available regardless of seniority?

2) Deadhead time: How much time do you all spend on airlines to and from your assignments? I know it varies, but just an example or weekly average would be nice. Is it correct to assume that pilots will be typically deadheaded to the closest assignment to their domicile? Are your airline flights booked on a carrier of your choice and do you get to upgrade to first class based on ff miles often? I hope this doesn't sound like too petty of a question, but I get really sick of commuting as is--and it would be nice to avoid long airline flights in the proverbial middle seat.

3) Time off: I hear Flight Options has an 8on/7off schedule--is this the ONLY available schedule? Does NetJets offer other than 7/7 shedules as well? How about CitationShares schedules? Do you ever get much time off on overnights to enjoy a city, or is it like regional airline schedules where 9 hours at the hotel is the norm? Are most people enjoying the schedules?

4) Upgrade time: On this board, somebody said that upgrade at CS was not based on seniority, but merit--is this true? If so, how is this determined ? How long would you guess for upgrade at NJ and FO?

5) Pay: How is Flight Options pay? That is the only one I couldn't find much info on.

6) Attitude/corporate culture: I'm sure NetJets might have a little bit of turmoil given contract negotiations, but overall how are the people you fly and the supervisors you work with?

7) What are your overall favorite and least favorite aspects of your job and company? I apologize for asking so many questions, and again, I sincerely appreciate your time in responding.

 

[JetCapt69]

Flight Options

I will try to answer a few in the short time I have, got to fly shortly.

1. Domiciles: You can live anywhere you want, as long as there is an airport nearby that has 3 airlines with 6 flights per day.

2. Airlines: Normally, you will only airline to your assigned aircraft on day 1 and home on day 8, thus two airline flights per rotation. If your airplane is going into maintenance for an overhaul or long phase, you may airline to a second airplane.

3. 8/7 is the only option now. We used to have an optional 9/6. It is nice having this schedule, the on duty day rotates each week, so you are not starting on the same day every week, like a 7/7 schedule. Imagine your first day on as Sunday & ending on Saturday forever, that would suck in my opinion. You will get a minimum of 10 hours off duty required per FAR 135. We usually get much more. We do not schedule longer than a 12 hour day, from first takeoff to last landing.

4. Upgrades: Like everywhere, upgrades are slow. A new hire is looking at a 3 year minimum wait, maybe longer. Generally, the 600 range is holding Captain right now, out of 900+ pilots.

5. Pay: Starts out just over $35,100 base pay per year for a small cabin SIC. If you get hired into mid or large cabin, it is higher. Per diem is $40.80 per day, untaxed, which equates to $9000+ per year. Overtime is approx. $300+ for SIC & almost $500 per day for PIC.


6. Culture: Flt Opts is a great place to work in my opinion. I left the regionals for here and have no regrets. 99% of the people are great to fly with, the other 1% are just born unhappy.

7. This type of flying is much better than the regionals. Different places each day and occassionally an exotic location. The schedule is great, lay out your calendar for the next year and actually make plans. If you take vacation, you will get 8 days off, plus the 7 off before your scheduled rotation and the 7 off after your scheduled rotation. How many places offer 3 weeks off for the price of 8 days?

The choice is yours, it's a tough one. All the fractionals have pros and cons. For me, this was the right choice.

Good luck.

 

[SDCFI]

JetCapt69 - how easy is it to move from a small cabin a/c to a large cabin as an F/O? Is there a seat lock at all, or can you bid for a larger a/c at will? You also mentioned OT as a daily rate, is that volunteering to fly on your days off? Thanks.

 

[fracflyer]

CitationShares

1. 90 minute rule is a general policy.

2. Maybe 3 hours of airline time a week for me. You will not necessarily be sent to the closest assignment. The cheapest airline flight is not always the shortest one. You get zero choice in which airline you want to fly on. I've flown on about every airline. That being said, if you are based out of DFW you will probably fly on AA quite a bit, or UAL in DEN. Most of the time we get a non-stop flight if available.

3. All 7on/7off here at CS. Rarely you will get a good overnight in a good city, but it does happen. Plan on a 2 day stay in Liberal, KS.

4. Upgrade is based on merit at CS, however, nearly everyone is upgrading in less than a year. Just work hard and you'll upgrade.

5. N/A

6. Corporate culture is generally good. Customer is #1

7. Fast upgrade. Significantly higher pay than the other fractionals for the size of aircraft we fly. Company growing quickly.

 

[PHX767]

Flight Options

O/T at either the beginning or end of your shift, voluntary.

1 year seat lock unless company moves you up on their terms.

Seems to me a lot of fairly senior pilots bid SIC on the bigger planes - maybe it's to get the type rating. It's possible to get to a bigger plane after a year, but the large cabins will of course go more senior.

Airlines will be the cheapest, makes no difference as scheduling dicates which plane you are assigned for to the week. I have started my shift and ended my shift in my metro area (PHX), but usually it seems that I end up as far east as geograpically possible. Of course the Teterboro vortex sucks you in at least once a week.

 

[FracCapt]

Comments on JetCapt's post

I just have to make a couple comments on JetCapt's post.....

8/7 is the only option now. We used to have an optional 9/6.

It's still available to those that desire it. Look at the Crew Personnel Action form...or whatever it's called. It's on there. The only way a pilot can do it is if a pilot in the other position(PIC/SIC) on the same schedule(or close to it, and they will alter one persons schedule to match the other) wants to do the 9/6 also. I know one crew that does it...I, personally, think they are nuts. 8 days is more than enough for me. I occasionally do a day of overtime, but it's rare.

You will get a minimum of 10 hours off duty required per FAR 135. We usually get much more. We do not schedule longer than a 12 hour day, from first takeoff to last landing.

That seems to depend mostly on the fleet. In the Hawker fleet, we generally get 10-12 hours off when on a green airplane. With a green airplane, we rarely get more than 12...and 10-11 is more the norm.

The "12 hour day" thing is from, as you stated, first takeoff to last landing...which equates to a 14 hour duty day. Granted, I don't know anybody that takes an hour to button up the airplane and split at the end of the day(most of us take 15 minutes or so, then we're on the way to the hotel), but we technically duty off 1 hour after landing at the earliest.

For those planning on going to ANY fractional....plan to be on duty for 14 hours every day, and off for 10 hours every night. Any shorter of a day or longer rest is just bonus....but don't count on it.

Per diem is $40.80 per day, untaxed, which equates to $9000+ per year.

With no overtime, each paycheck you get $338.64 in perdiem. That's roughly $8100 a year(based on 24 pay periods). Not trying to nitpick here(with any of these things) - just trying to give what I feel is the most accurate info to those considering Flight Options.

Culture: Flt Opts is a great place to work in my opinion.

I agree. As with every company, there are problems....but overall, I like working here. Of course, I would rather not have to work at all....and buy a fleet of airplanes of various types to fly at my leisure...but until that multi million dollar settlement comes through(I still have to figure out who to sue, and for what, to get it though )...I like what I do. There are very few positions I would leave for.

 

[hyper]

Of course the Teterboro vortex sucks you in at least once a week.

So true.

 

[JetCapt69]

Flight Optionis

FracCapt,

It's still available to those that desire it. Look at the Crew Personnel Action form...or whatever it's called. It's on there.

You are correct, it is on the P.A.F. However, according to Mr. R.H. that option is not going to be available to new crews (his words, not mine). The crews that are currently on the schedule will stay on it, unless one of them opts out of it, then they will both be returned to an 8/7 schedule.

That seems to depend mostly on the fleet. In the Hawker fleet, we generally get 10-12 hours off when on a green airplane.

As I stated, a minimum of 10 hours. The busier fleets, ie, hawker, beechjet & now the legacy certainly will get minimum rest. The Citation 3 crews get the most rest, days of it, unless they are green. (Kidding guys).

With no overtime, each paycheck you get $338.64 in perdiem. That's roughly $8100 a year

That is correct. I made a typo, meant $8000+ per year. I was in a hurry this morning, long day.

 

[FracCapt]

The Citation 3 crews get the most rest, days of it, unless they are green. (Kidding guys).

I used to think the term Citation Vacation referred strictly to the CJ's...but I quickly learned it applied to the III's as well. It seems half the trips we do in the Hawker are CIII trips.

 

[JetCapt69]

Citations

I know some fellas in the CJ program. It used to be the citation vacation but since sales has been pushing the CJ over the King Air, those lazy days are long gone.

Over half the hawker trips are upgrades, KA, CJ, CITIII or BJ's.

 

[niteflyr]

Netjets

Here is my attempt at answering your queries...all subject to change with "The Contract" but this is how it has been for my three years...

1 - 26 (I think) Gateway cities you can choose from. Must be within 3 hours or 100 miles on Day 1 of tour.

2 - Dreaded Deadheading (Biggest downer) Being a west coaster I usually start with a short airline out west somewhere to meet a plane (not always) but almost always end up on the east coast with a marathon last day airlining home. Good part of this is the Airline miles add up quick, as well as FF status which equals free upgrades.

3 - Time off. 7 on 7 off for 50% of each fleet by seniority and bidding. Sunday thru Saturday or Tuesday thru Monday. Tuesday start is the most popular. It is bid quarterly so you can change start dates each quarter if you want, or time it to get 2 weeks off every quarter change. Sweet! And vacation is 2 weeks per year which equals 6 weeks for the 7n7 guys. Others get the 17 day schedule, usually 2 - 6 day trips and a 5 day trip. Can also bid flex schedule to work 19 days per month at the company's whim with only 4 hard days off, haven't tried that yet but it pays more.

4 - Upgrade time. Pretty slow for a while now, but just started seeing trickle of bids coming out recently and expecting a lot more.

5 - Pay. Sucks right now.

6 - Attitude. Suprisingly good considering long negotiations, I think there is a light at the end of the tunnel mentality right now though (But I think it is the train coming) You either love this type of flying or hate it. No idea where you will end up and for how long. Schedule changes constantly, sometimes en route. Takes a very flexible person to stay at this.

7 - Favorites. I like the variety of locations, and the lack of major hub airports we have to fly into. We get into them now and then, but not like the majors. I have seen enough of that in my previous life. Give me a small uncontrolled strip in mountains anyday!

 

[flybrowntails]

Just interested--
what does a Capt. make at F/O
--is it salary, hourly?

Top pay?

thanks.

 

[JetCapt69]

Pay scale estimate

Minimum captain pay to start is $51,996, maximum for large cabin is $114,396, plus per diem ($9100 annually), check airman $9600 annually.

Small cabin (KA, CJ, BJ, Cit 2/5):

1st: 4333 month
7th: 6125
15th: 7325

Mid-Size (Hawkers, Cit 3)

1st: 5175 month
7th: 6125
15th: 7325

Large Cabin (Challenger,Falcon, Legacy (not sure if legacy fits here or not)

1st: 6250
7th: 7050
15th: 8050

Large Cabin (Gulfstream):

1st: 8333
7th: 8733
15th: 9533

 

[WileE]

Nice little details about FO

Some little things that make things a little easier that haven't been mentioned yet.

If you are working you aren't buying meals. Usually they schedule crew meals with the catering automatically if you fly anywhere close to meal-time. If they don't you can call and if it's less than like 2 hours or so between flights they'll go ahead and order you meals. Dispatch is real good about this and I've never seen them say no when we asked. I've done whole tours where I've never bought a meal. Makes per-diem go a lot farther.

Also you are expected to tip and can expense it all. That means that you don't have to worry about tipping the van drivers or line guys. The company looks at it as an investment for good service so it's another thing you don't end up spending your own money for.

They put us up at pretty nice hotels most of the time. It seems all the hilton properties are the first choice of they are available (I went from zero to Diamond on my hilton honors in about eight months). Occasionally you'll even get a night in an awesome resort when other hotels are full.

 

[capt_zman]

Quick question, would they hire into the large and/or mid cabin airplanes with a type and pic time in type?

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

Nope

Everyone starts in the small cabins.

 

[On Your Six]

I've met NJA FOs who started in the Falcon 2000. And of course, those lucky enough to fly with NJI start as FO in the GIV and GV. Personally, I would love to start in the Sovereign - looks like a great ride...

 

[JetCapt69]

New hires

Everyone starts in the small cabins.

This is the general rule, however, as of a year ago, I have a friend who was hired into the hawker xp, he was originally offered a beechjet position, but when the "need" of the company was for the hawker, there he went.

 

[Diesel]

Let's not think that both companies buy you food out of the goodness of their hearts.

NJA has a policy. We get crewfood anytime. My mealtime is different from yours. We order what we want no pre packaged food.

The company learned a long time ago that if pilots just start going off for lunch and come back like 2hrs later they are going to lose a ton of money.

 

[FracCapt]

Quick question, would they hire into the large and/or mid cabin airplanes with a type and pic time in type?

Mid cabin, possibly. Not likely, but possibly. Only if there are openings and nobody has bid those positions. Large cabin - not a chance. Chances are 99% that you would start in a KA200, BE400, CE525, or CE550 - regardless of experience.