Comparing my options?

[FAIP Freddy]

Should I stay or should I go?

My question: Is there a location on the web or else where to find concise pay scales/benefit info to make an informed decision?

It's getting close to the BIG decision time for me. Should I stay in the military and retire (11 yrs of service now), or should I try my LUCK with the very very few jobs out there? I know a lot of guys in the same boat, and we are all biting our nails wondering which way to go. As it stands right now I can take a 5 yr bonus, stay in and then hope for a 3 yr extension to that bonus. This will put me just shy of 20 yrs. I could then retire for the rest of my life with a guaranteed $2300/mo (hey it's a mortgage payment). Of course this comes with 9 more years of BS additional duties, 26 hour + duty days, and potential remote deployments. I know the civilian world has it's share of BS as well, but the flying jobs out there are just that. Flying jobs! Don't get me wrong I love the time I've given to the government, but think it may be time to move on!

 

[TonyC]

Should I stay or should I go?

My question: Is there a location on the web or else where to find concise pay scales/benefit info to make an informed decision?

It's getting close to the BIG decision time for me. Should I stay in the military and retire (11 yrs of service now), or should I try my LUCK with the very very few jobs out there? I know a lot of guys in the same boat, and we are all biting our nails wondering which way to go. As it stands right now I can take a 5 yr bonus, stay in and then hope for a 3 yr extension to that bonus. This will put me just shy of 20 yrs. I could then retire for the rest of my life with a guaranteed $2300/mo (hey it's a mortgage payment). Of course this comes with 9 more years of BS additional duties, 26 hour + duty days, and potential remote deployments. I know the civilian world has it's share of BS as well, but the flying jobs out there are just that. Flying jobs! Don't get me wrong I love the time I've given to the government, but think it may be time to move on!

I went through the same decision-making process about 13 years ago, and decided to stay in and work towards retirement. There was a critical piece of information that I lacked in making that decision, but I'll share that last.

What amazed me at the time was a financial comparison of two scenarios. The first scenario was retire at 20, get hired by a major, work 'til age 60, retire again. The second scenario was quit the AF after only 19 (forfeit military retirement) get hired by a major, and work 'til age 60 and retire. The second scenario resulted in a much larger lifetime earnings, assuming the last year as a major airline pilot netted somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 Grand (quite realistic for a 19-yr major pilot).

Even so, I opted to stay in and serve, feeling quite comfortable with the combination of lifestyle, service, and the built-in excuse to whine, and planned to serve myself (money, money, money) after I had completed 20 years of service to my country. After all, I wasn't in the Air Force to become rich, and I was comfortable in the lifestyle and income with which I had become accustomed. I'm quite sure that you view 200 Grand as an insane figure, you are quite comfortable getting by on what you make today, and, after all, you're still amazed that you get paid - - extra even (flight pay, pilot bonuses, etc.) - - to do what you love.

Several years later I saw things a little differently. The biggest change was lifestyle. Spending the "peace dividend" resulted in the Air Force doing more with less, and I found myself racking up 300+ days TDY in a year. The choice at that time became one of family versus country. I chose family, and quickly shifted toward a civilian career. Shortly thereafter I discovered the little piece of information that might have altered my previous decision to stay for 20.

Now, I'm sure you've heard that in the airline industry "Seniority is Everything." The earlier you get hired, the better seniority you have, and the better your seat progression, pay increases, lifestyle - - everything. I knew that, but I was willing to sacrifice a little seniority to serve my country. Besides, there's no flying that will compare with what you're doing now, and you probably really enjoy the flying part. What you probably have NOT heard is this: Full Retirement usually requires 25 years of service with the company. Do the math. You can't get a full retirement with Uncle Sam and have enough time left to get the full retirement from a major carrier. Now you have your decison couched in the form of a binary choice: Military pension - - 2300 a month... or full Major Air Carrier pension - - lots, lots more.

If only I had known this ahead of time, I would have made my bid for a civilian career much earlier. Of course, I made these decisions in a much different economic climate. Getting a Major job directly out of the military wasn't a long shot then. Today it is.

Even so, knowing what I know now, this is what > I < would do if I were in your shoes.

A) BAIL OUT

B) Go get a permanent job with FedEx Express. Any permanent job that carries a "commitment" of no more than a year. Handler, courier, driver, Customer Service Agent, floor sweeper, shoe shiner, - - don't matter. After a year in that job you'll have two things. 1) an appreciation for hard work and the workings of the company. 2) A guaranteed shot at an interview whenever pilot hiring is being done.

C) Enjoy the life that you didn't realize you had.

Now, if you know of a more certain way of getting a job with a major, substitute that for step B above.


On the other hand, if you're really proud of that leather jacket, and you get a thrill out of wearing nomex in public, forget what I just said. Go grab the bonus.


Good luck to you. Thank you for serving my country. Don't forget about your family.

 

[HoursHore]

Whatever you do, do not take a job at a regional without some kind of Reserve / Guard backup. You will not eat if you do that.

If you are looking to be available when the tide turns, whenever that may be, my advice is to nail down a reserve/ guard job, take whatever you can get on the civ side.

If you can get JetBlue you are golden. Hopefully SWA starts kicking in thier hiring machine soon. FEDEX, who knows. All other majors are but a dream for at least five years.

Only other thing is the regionals. If you couldn't take mil leave at least half the month and make real money in the reserves or guard you'd be on Food stamps. The biggest thing about working for a regional is the pass benefits and the health insurance.

Bottom line, you will make a lot less money for at least two years when you jump to the dark side, but there are plus sides: Contol of your life, Free travel, cheap insurance. If you have some kind of Gurad/Reserve Job, and its actually pretty doable. And do not try to commute to both jobs. Pick one and commute to the other.

 

[satpak77]

Pan Am, US Airways, Braniff, etc

What amazed me at the time was a financial comparison of two scenarios. The first scenario was retire at 20, get hired by a major, work 'til age 60, retire again. The second scenario was quit the AF after only 19 (forfeit military retirement) get hired by a major, and work 'til age 60 and retire. The second scenario resulted in a much larger lifetime earnings, assuming the last year as a major airline pilot netted somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 Grand (quite realistic for a 19-yr major pilot).

Just sharing my two cents, dont jump on me too hard guys:

I think the "larger lifetime earnings" factor may be lesser a reality in this environment (or has it always been that way?). In this example we have a military guy giving up a guaranteed paycheck (pension) for something perceived to be guaranteed (the "lifetime" airline job).

I think we saw this scenario play out before with some guys who went to UAL and US Air. I doubt those companies will ever pay out the true pension that they correctly deserved based on time with the airline. Its hard to keep up with all the court rulings now, but I think both companies got some sort of court approval to not pay the standard pension plan due to financial reasons.

Today, yes, you can get on with SWA and possibly "count on" on full career, but who knows.

How old when you retire from military? Mid-late 40's? That gives you 10 to 15 years of airline service life to do the airline thing (assuming they hire you--------SWA hiring a 48 year old guy that I personally know, so...).

Anyway, just my two cents, maybe something to keep in mind before you completely write off that pension check.

put this in the appropriately shaped file

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

Although the times are tough on the outside right now, I'm with Tony C. The hiring gates will open and you need to make yourself available when the time comes. Since the airlines jobs are scarce right now, I would highly recommend securing a flying reserve/guard job before you get out. As you already know, doing more with less thing gets old. The military is a sacrifice and we all volunteered for it, but there comes a time when you have to choose between your quality of life/family and your "career". As Tony C mentioned, in the airlines, it's all about seniority.

Where are/did you fly(ing) FREDs at?

 

[FAIP Freddy]

Thanks for the insight!

You all bring up good points, and I think this is why it is such a hard decision. Give up a stable income for the unknown. I do know that the quality of life for the last 2+yrs flying fred has been less than good! Good hours though! I certainly know the "more with less thing".

I'm a Travis guy.

 

[AlbieF15]

Couple of randoms thoughts...

First...you have to consider the "what did I want to do when I was a kid" factor. If being an airline pilot was part of that equation, you will be frustrated for a few years as you wait for your chance to go. Additionally, there is no guarantee that at your exit point, be it 15 or 20 years, that your timing will coincide with a hiring wave. In other words, the job you are waiting on to grab at 20 years may not be there for you when you get out.

My story went like this--AD service obligation was up in 96. In 95 when I was doing networking, etc there wasn't much hiring going on. Living in AK, I visited the FDX hub. Got told to "throw boxes a year" and then I might have a chance. My AF leadership said "take this $72,000 bonus and go fly Eagles in Germany". The idea of throwing boxes so I MIGHT get a job verses doing something I always wanted to do was an easy choice, and I stayed in. Had I left, and been lucky enough to be hired at FDX, right now I'd be a 727 Captain. On the other hand, I have absolutely no regrets, and the chance to be an IP, Flt CC, etc in an overseas F15 squadron was a great life experience. The bonus made buying our current home possible, and the financial security allowed us to explore Europe and have a great time without worrying about how we would pay our bills.

Now...at the end of my bonus obligation the airlines were finally hiring. My timing was slightly off for United/Delta/American, but good old FedEx came through as did JetBlue (another story). I left 6 years from an active retirement BECAUSE I WANTED TO BE AN AIRLINE PILOT and I knew there was no guarantee I'd get the chance later. The ANG is a great way to keep some of your benefits and military perks (including the flying!) and still chase your airline goals. I didn't do a cost/benefit tradeoff as much as I did what I thought would be best for my family and my own mental health.

There is no guarantee Tony C's retirement calculator will every accurately let you know which option will give you the most financial gain--new contracts, changing laws, Chapter 11s, etc can ruin any good plan. (Old saw: Wanna make God laugh? Have a plan!) However, if you honestly believe you'll be happier outside the service than in, there ARE airlines hiring right now. Keeping a foot in the ANG/Reserves will let you test the waters while still providing you an option to return to active duty if it doesn't work out.

With options come choices, and with decisions comes responsibility. I hope you find the right answer for your and your family.

 

[donger]

Ultimately this choice will boil down time... How long can you wait?

After just over ten years in the Navy I bailed with nothing more than one contingent job offer and hopes of getting an interview with FedEx. (Oh yeah, had a reserve/ guard slot in hand too). Not much, but I knew the next job in the Navy was to live two-three years without flying, but still a paycheck in had.

Cutting to the chase: I got that interview with FedEx and was placed in the pool... Very very lucky and very fortunate. In that same spirit I was offered a job with US Customs (flying). A really great job, but much too like the Navy for me. I spent ten months collecting unemployment ( which you are entitled to BTW when leaving/ quitting the service, and guard/reserve drilling will not affect that) That is how I was able to survive and how I continued to fly.

I am working for Customs, making very good money, waiting for MY dream job with FedEx. I have started my second year in the pool.

Time keeps moving, and making opportunities where none appear to exist is the key. You may have to work very hard to make some of those doors open, but change is scary. I was scared to death giving up $90K a year with the Navy, but I don't regret it.

If you can find those opportunities that will allow you to achieve your goals then I say get out

Good Luck!



Donger

No more yanky my wanky,
The Donger need FOOD!!!!!

.

 

[scoreboard]

GET OUT. I'm at 19.3 years, should have bailed 10-11 years ago.

Yes, this has been a hoot, loved everyday. But I'm thinking in terms of marketability to provide for the family.

Yes, I love saying I served for 20, not many do. Yes, the retirement is meager, but it will put food on the table, now I have to find another job to put kids through school, finish paying off a house, etc, so I need the airline job at the end. I should have bailed earlier. See my point? I had the fun of flying F-15's, still doing it at 19.3yrs, but should have left to ensure the income.

Get any ANG, reserve position anywhere doing anything even nonflying to preserve Mil retirment.

My peers who bailed are all captains pushing 200K a year. Yes, they lived with parents through a few shuffles, but thats civvy life. What you cannot imagine is going to non-fliying after non-flying job then trying to get hired when you retire. Look at SWA, 200 hours profficiency. Currency is money, without it, you ask "would you like frys with that" which I may very well be doing, another story.

Bottom line, what do you want?

 

[Gumbydammit]

Hey donger,
How is customs...I have heard many say it was great and they couldn't imagine doing anything else...you sound less enthused...what's the down side there? Is it really like still being in the navy...mission first, family second and all that?

Freddy,
I was in the exact same situation a year ago and I passed on the big bonus because neither the FDX or SWA pool was moving and JBLU was the only "major" hiring...I took flying orders to put off the decision and see how things would look in a couple years. I lost some upside...i.e. bonus money, but I am living comfortably and getting paid to fly. I am also guaranteed a minimum of a decent flying job in the near term with retirement credit accumulating and all the while things on the outside are improving. Albie is right...once you opt to stay to 20, you have given yourself only one exit point and it may suck bad then. Keep in mind, you are not walking away from your retirement either...you just have to wait until you're 60 (or maybe 55) to get it. Oh, by the way, I don't think you get full medical in military retirement anymore either...there is some deal where you pay for stuff until age 62 or so...WTFO? If I was in your shoes, I would either take short term no-commitment flying orders and wait for a better day or get a reserve job and whore myself there until I got hired. Your own situation...$ saved, wife working, kids, etc will probably drive the decision in the end...did for me and I don't regret it at all...of course, hiring has been near zero since then, so maybe I would feel differently if things would have turned around right after V1. Anyway, good luck...make a decision and don't second guess yourself at all once it's done...you'll go nuts if you do that.

 

[Afterprop]

Faip Freddy . . .
Sounds like a song I think bottom line, in addition to being able to provide for your family is you have to be able to look yourself in the mirror and be happy with what you are doing. Getting out of the military pre-retirement is an awesome gut check . . . and a gamble of sorts. When I reached my decision points, I decided to stay in each time because at the time I was having fun, and enjoying life. For you right now the AF is a known quanity while the airlines is somewhat of an uncertain proposition -- at least for now. Yes, I've too friends that are making the big bucks now, but I'm the guy I am today, for better or worse, due to my experiences in the AF for the last 10 years, including a few non-flying assignments. I'd reached the point where the AF wasn't going to allow me to fly much longer . . . other than a desk. I'll miss the formation airdrop low-level stuff, but flying is flying, and I smile at myself in the mirror every morning. Of course, I'm still waiting for the phone call from an HR department but I'm used to hurry up~n~wait. What do you want to do?

Very, very recently retired

 

[donger]

Gumbydammit,

Customs is Navy Lite. No long deployments, no political manuevering to get ranked #1, ect.

The part I don't care for is the hours and hours of sitting around the office when not flying and not on the schedule wasting time. There is definately an art to wasting time. I prefer to waste time at home, or where ever I like, but that is not an option.

being a jet guy you know the lifestyle available here in South Texas and it is not all that great. Considering I just moved from LA and before that Hawaii, I am not happy. I have been spoiled, but at least Corpus is better (in my opinion) than Jacksonville, Fl.

The atmosphere where I am is very much the same as the P-3 fleet. Very little "new blood" so the mindset never changes.

As far as mission before family, yeah...about the same. P-3 missions are boring and last 10 hours. The aircrew are OLD. Some of these guys look like they could have a heart attack at any moment. As a matter of fact since I've been in this office, 2 guys have died...of old age.

All in all, pretty depressing place, but there are some really good guys that are great to hang around being bored with. Misery loves company.

 

[Gumbydammit]

Donger,
Sounds like it's not as allfire exciting as the make it sound on the website. How much do you actually fly? How input do you get into where you live? Can you turn down your "orders"?
Thanks for the gouge

 

[CookieMonster]

Freddy,

I know it is a tough decision...but in the end...you'll need to do what is going to make you and your family happy.

As much as I enjoy flying for the military...I'm ready to bail to improve my quality of life.

Good luck to you while you ponder your options!

 

[CatfishVT9]

Freddy,
Make sure you look at everthing as a total package. Your retirement figure seems low to me. I just retired as an O-5 at 20 for about $3000/month. I don't have a job yet so that is a huge comfort and makes my mortgage and then some.

Also, those calculators that show you can leave at 19 years and be ahead are crap. Those numbers are based on the BEST CASE scenario and a high paying major (they don't hire any more and won't for years). I know a bunch of guys who used that mentality and left the Navy between 1999 and September of 2001. Only the ones who went with FEDEX or Jet Blue (a big unknown at the time) are still working. Some have even moved back in with their parents!!! AUGGGGHHH!!!

I'm not saying you should stay, but always view statistics with skepticism. The airlines are definitely a risky industry. When I first started out, Eastern, Pan AM, TWA, Air Florida, and Braniff were great companies. Nuff said.

For me staying in was the right choice.

Good luck!

 

[TonyC]

I'm not saying you should stay, but always view statistics with skepticism. The airlines are definitely a risky industry.

Yepp. Definitely risky.

Military - - No risk. Just keep saying "yessir," do your PME, and keep the grass on base housing mowed to specs.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

[spanky2]

Piling on over here. When I was at the same point in my life that you are the ailrine industry was stagnant and somewhat risky. I had a family and the military was stable. I chose to stay thru 20. Got hired by a major. Flew a couple of years. Got furloughed. Retirement money eased the panic level. I am back on active duty and waiting and watching, no hurry to go back, adding 2.5% per year towards re-retirement.

If (big if) I had bailed then, I would be very comfy with a good seniority number, earning some good money. But the BK world is pretty scary. Earning $40k a year guaranteed is pretty nice.

That is why they say hindsight is 20/20.

 

[potrack]

GET OUT,

You've heard it from everyone else....TDYs, time in the desert, the service is a different place than it had been just 6 years ago or so.

Find a reserve/guard job. Stay flying and logging hours. That way you can have a flexible schedule and only go TDY when and where you want----or if your unit is AETC then not at all. The down side is that you don't get the retirement money till 60.

Remember.....the military doesn't care about you or your family! Only the mission......that's the nature of the beast.

 

[ellsworb]

I am in the AF right now. .only my first year. . BUT. . my father did 20 years and 2 weeks. . that pension that he recieves is what put ME through college. . Right now. . my "Plan" is to just stay in. . heck. i'm only 21 right now. . but $$ in hand is MUCH more comfortable than $$ i MIGHT make.

 

[duckman]

The AF numbers

Retired with 20 yrs 8 months. 45 yrs old.
Get ~$3300 a month....or about $39.6K a yr before taxes in retirement pay.
IF..(big IF I know) I can live to 80 yrs old...the AF will have given me $1.38 Million. Kinda like winning the 1.38 Mil lotto isn't it...Lottos's don't pay it ALL up front either...usually over 20yrs or so.
Ya take a big penalty for a lump sum lotto payout...and you have far better odds of getting that AF "lotto" than you do any Powerball!!

It's all been said before....havin fun?? Like the AF flying??
Like having a job with SOUL..being a leader..being the boss (Squadron Commander stuff) Having the power and authority to make changes to an organization and peoples lives?
OR does the more laid back idea of an airborne bus driver have appeal (less stress easier life)
Want more control of your life... more time off?
$$ drive your motivation??
Quality of life comparisons?? The Airlines are for you!!

No one can tell ya what to do....ya just gotta decide for yourself.