Commercial Long Cross Country

[minitour]

Hey all. I'm really getting excited (I know - its sick) about doing this long Cross Country. Here's where I'm having the problems...er...questions.

I'm going home the week before Thanksgiving to see the family and eat some turkey. While I'm home I'll probably be able to fly, but not at my school (141).

If I do the cross country while I'm there, will I get to credit that toward my certificate requirements for the CPL? Is this where that 50% rule comes in? Can someone explain that 50% rule and how/where it applies?

Also, I'm looking for someplace cool to go (just to say "hey, I've been there") while I'm doing it.

If I do it here, I'll be needing to go straight line at least 250nm away from KOUN (OKC area). And if I do it at home, I'll need to be 250nm away from KYNG (NE Ohio).

My other question: The 141 regs don't mention VFR conditions for this flight, so does that open the door for me to file and fly IFR?

Wow, just thinking about this is exciting me almost a little too much. I think I'm moist...okay thanks for the help!

-mini

 

[philo beddoe]

You may credit up to 25% of the receiving school's course total, when enrolling.

Since you are already enrolled, I think it is dubious to try to log part 61 time in your 141 syllabus.

The purpose of the rule os to allow you to bring hours in, not to 'moonlight' outside of the curriculum.

Most Feds I know would say no to this.

 

[minitour]

Isn't a solo xc a solo xc?

Does it matter wether I use my 141 school's planes or one that I rent?

I guess I don't understand why it would matter where I do the flight since its a solo. I definately understand getting 61 instruction when I'm enrolled in a 141 school being a negative.

Is this a reg thing (couldn't find anything) or is this just something that feds don't like to see when they give a CPL ride?

Thanks again!

-mini

 

[seethru]

I would probably be asking my school director, or chief instructor, this question.

When I was training under 141, I had to make sure the plane I was flying was under their 141 certificate.

I also remember that the flights were conducted under VFR. Again, check with your school's policies.

Greg

 

[Tired Soul]

Doesn't say VFR or IFR, so file it fly it....
At least it's a whole lot more "Commercial" than a VFR 2000' 300NM XC in a 152 .

 

[User546]

Well it's too early in the morning, and I may not be thinking too clearly here... but isn't a bigger issue here going to be how your flight instructor is going to be able to review your flight plan and give you the sign-off to perform it?

Because technically if you go to NE Ohio and then plan a trip from there, the CFI is required to look over your flight plan and check it for validity and accuracy. And for the most part that should be done on the day of the flight, once you've both reviewed the weather, determined it to be good, and all your calculations were made. That could be hard to do from long distance!

 

[Ralgha]

He's not a student pilot. The X/C doesn't need to be endorsed by a CFI (unless that's a cracked out 141 rule that I don't know of).

 

[PaulThomas]

If you're talking about 61.129, I'd check the post I made recently so you understand what's required.

Your question brought another interesting point. Do you need to have done these requirements in a 141 certified plane? I wouldn't think so, otherwise, the 250 hours requirement would also have to be done in a 141 certified plane.

DISCLAIMER: I am a a fresh low time PPL pilot. There is a possibility that what I write is wrong.

 

[minitour]

He's not a student pilot. The X/C doesn't need to be endorsed by a CFI (unless that's a cracked out 141 rule that I don't know of).

I hear you there. Why do I need a CFI endorsement to make a flight that I'm perfectly legal to make on my own? Once I've got my IR I can legally do it IFR or VFR (since it doesn't say VFR conditions).

All it says is:

5. Each approved course must include at least the following solo flight training:
(a) For an airplane single engine course: 10 hours of solo flight training in a single-engine airplane on the approved areas of operation in paragraph (d)(1) of section No. 4 of this appendix that includes at least -
(2) One cross-country flight, if the training is being performed in a State other than Hawaaii, with landings at a minimum of three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles; and

(d) (1) covers preflight, airport operations, takeoff landings and go-arounds, performance maneuvers, navigation, slow flight, emergencies, high-altitude operations, and postflight.

The way I'm reading it:
As long as its got a straight line distance of at least 250nm and has three landings and I do preflight,fly the airplane and do post-flight, I should be able to do it in "Jimbobs Cub" if I really wanted to, right?

However, 141.39 does cover aircraft requirements. It just says that they have to be registered as a civil aircraft, certified with a standard airworthiness certificate, maintainted and inspected per part 91, have at least two pilot stations, and be equipped and maintained for IFR flight if used for IFR training.

So as long as the plane is airworthy and registered; had its 100 hour; had its Pitot/static, ELT, Transponder, checks; and the 30 day VOR check along with having the Minimum equipment for IFR flight....shouldn't be a problem?

I'll be checking with the Chief instructor on Monday just to be sure either way, but I appreciate the help with interpretating the rules guys!

Thanks again!

-mini

 

[Sundevil]

Remember, under part 141 that pilots can obtain certificates and ratings in less time than under part 91 due to the standardized training given under 141. Most 141 schools have approved cross country routes for each phase of training and it usually takes Chief CFI approval to fly a different route. It all depends on what your TCO's say and the CFI and Chief CFI should be answering these questions for you. If you differ from the FAA appoved TCO's, you are not legally complying with the 141 approved program. Good luck.

 

[cale42]

Wow there is a lot of misinformation in this post.Minitour... to address your questions.

1.The rule for crediting previous 61 experience ONLY applies at the time of enrollment. AFter that all the time towards the 141 certificate must be conducted under 141 rules.

2. Whether or not you can do it in another aircraft depends on the schools specific 141 certificate. You will have to check this with your chief pilot. Many schools are required to keep a tail number list of 141 aircraft, everytime one enters or leaves the flight line the list is updated. Under some 141 certificates however you can fly other aircraft for the solo time and it will count.

2a. Sundevil also makes a good point regarding airports. 141 schools must have an approved list of airports, and operations otherwise require chief pilot approval if they are to count for 141, so check that too if you plan to do it in Ohio

3. You definitely do NOT have to do it as a VFR flight or even in VFR conditions. You could file and fly in the clouds if you wanted it will count. This is in the regulations and I've cross checked it with examiners, the VFR rule is only for the night solo and the dual cross countries.

4. Obviously you do not need an endorsement for this flight.

hope this helps
cale

 

[User546]

OK, thanks for the reeming on the endorsement issue! I do flight instructing on the side, and I've never done a Commercial student before, so I'm mostly use to dealing with student pilot cross countries! I'll wake up a little more next time before I post!

Thanks for the corrections!

 

[minitour]

Wow there is a lot of misinformation in this post.Minitour... to address your questions.

1.The rule for crediting previous 61 experience ONLY applies at the time of enrollment. AFter that all the time towards the 141 certificate must be conducted under 141 rules.

2. Whether or not you can do it in another aircraft depends on the schools specific 141 certificate. You will have to check this with your chief pilot. Many schools are required to keep a tail number list of 141 aircraft, everytime one enters or leaves the flight line the list is updated. Under some 141 certificates however you can fly other aircraft for the solo time and it will count.

2a. Sundevil also makes a good point regarding airports. 141 schools must have an approved list of airports, and operations otherwise require chief pilot approval if they are to count for 141, so check that too if you plan to do it in Ohio

3. You definitely do NOT have to do it as a VFR flight or even in VFR conditions. You could file and fly in the clouds if you wanted it will count. This is in the regulations and I've cross checked it with examiners, the VFR rule is only for the night solo and the dual cross countries.

4. Obviously you do not need an endorsement for this flight.

hope this helps
cale

Thank you!

-mini

 

[JonJohn82]

Come by KOUN and eat at Ozzie's here.

 

[User546]

Come by KOUN and eat at Ozzie's here.

We frequently have stop-overs at OUN, and if you land there, you must eat at Ozzie's! Great food, and you can't beat their all-you-can-eat breakfast's for mere pocket change.

Just be careful that if you do have the all-you-can-eat breakfast, you dont jump right into your plane and start off on a long flight somewhere. It'll always catch up with you about the time you level off at FL410 heading for the long haul.

 

[JonJohn82]

Yeah, since the flight school I fly for is in the terminal with Ozzie's, I eat there quite a bit.

 

[nosehair]

The key term is "FAA Approved Course". All flights conducted towards certification under Part 141 must be within the specific school's "Approved Course". You cannot enroll in an "Approved Course", then go outside and do flying that counts toward certification under the "Approved Course" curriculum.

 

[JRSLim]

Our 141 school has a list of approved airfields for Private students to use for touch and gos and PPL cross countries. There are no specified airports for our Commercial students.

 

[siucavflight]

Listen to Cale. He knows his 141 stuff.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

I don't claim to be an authority, but... I did 141 training and I seem to remember flying off to all kinds of odd airports to get my commercial cross country time. Don't recall checking a list or getting permision to go to a single one.