Comments, General Lee?

[John Pennekamp]

Looks like the TA is going to allow fifteen 71-76 seaters for DCI per year. You said the pilots would vote it down if it had ANY scope relief.

What say you now? Time to put your money where your mouth is.

April 21, 2006

On April 14, 2006, the Negotiating Committee and management reached a tentative
agreement (T/A) on Letter of Agreement #51 (LOA #51), the Bankruptcy Restructuring
Agreement. We will present below a summary of the agreement...

• Pay cut of 14% from LOA #46 followed by annual pay raises starting January 1,
2007. Additional pay increases tied to Company financial performance
(protection against the Contract ’96 debacle).
• Limited authority to operate 71-76 seat DCI jets, provided that no pilot on the
current seniority list (Troy Kane and above) is placed on furlough. This
protection is not subject to a force majeure clause.
• There are no changes to any of our duty rigs or scheduling (except for Hawaii
reporting); our quality of life items.
• The MPPP will be terminated and the money will be placed in your account that
you control.
• Notes and Equity to return a substantial part of our concessions.
• Duration of 3.5 years (12/31/2009, same as LOA #46).
• The effective date of the agreement will be June 1, 2006 if the T/A is ratified and
is approved by the Bankruptcy Court.
The following is a summary of the T/A:


Scope:

• 76-seaters will be allowed at DCI, with strict limitations on numbers, and with
incentives for mainline growth.
• If the Company furloughs a pilot on the current seniority list (Troy Kane and
above), DCI cannot fly any of the 71-76 seat jets with more than 70 seats. In fact,
they must then physically remove the excess seats from ALL such aircraft for the
balance of this contract.
o Beginning January 1, 2007, DCI is allowed to operate fifteen jets
configured with 71-76 seats. They may operate these aircraft prior to this
date, but with a maximum of 70 seats.
o On January 1, 2008, DCI is allowed to operate an additional fifteen 71-76
seat jets.
o Additional 71-76 seaters can be added, but only on the basis of mainline
aircraft growth (three 71-76 seaters for one growth mainline aircraft).
• Delete minimum block hours and planned percentages.
• Delete designated flying block hours.
• Change in control provisions allow flexibility in Chapter 11, but preserve
essential protections in an airline-to-airline transaction during Chapter 11.
• Delete the required recall of all furloughed pilots by August 1, 2008.
• Delete the requirement to be at a 75 hour ALV in certain categories for 3 months
prior to furloughing. Maintain the three month furlough notice requirement.
Compensation:

 

[ReverseSensing]

This is the scene I imagine:

General Lee barefoot in a bathrobe, hasn't shave or bathed in 3 days, pacing back and forth with a tattered, soiled, dog-eared copy of the proposed TA rolled up in his hands, whacking himself in the back of the head with it, muttering, "how could this happen...how could this happen...how could this happen?"

 

[HoserASA]

Looks like the TA is going to allow fifteen 71-76 seaters for DCI per year. You said the pilots would vote it down if it had ANY scope relief.What say you now? Time to put your money where your mouth is.[/b]

Don't gloat too early now. The DAL pilots will vote on it in mid May, and it could very well be voted down. Gen Lee will tell you soon I'm sure.

Hoser

 

[WSurf]

They will vote it in!!! Nobody is gloating.....

And he gave me soo much grief!!! PM'ing me about how they would not accept a pay cut or change in Scope!!! I asked him three questions!!
1. Will the Pilots Strike?
2. Will the Pilots Take a Pay Cut?
3. Will the pilots allow a change in Scope?
I said........ No, yes, yes
Lee----> Maybe, no, no!!!

Personally I have nothing against General Lee, and I hope that Delta guys can hold the line........ But is it me, or does General bring a lot of this crap on himself???

Good Day!!!

 

[737 Pylt]

Looks like the TA is going to allow fifteen 71-76 seaters for DCI per year. You said the pilots would vote it down if it had ANY scope relief.

What say you now? Time to put your money where your mouth is.

[/b]

By your own admission....."You said the pilots would vote it down if it had ANY scope relief."
Well Einstein, we haven't voted on it yet! It's called a TA approved by the MEC, and has yet to go to the membership for ratification. I know I will be voting NO!
737

 

[NAAPilot]

I cant believe the DL MEC had the audacity to bring this to you guys. All I can say is good luck guys.

 

[GogglesPisano]

1)Vote it down.
2)Recall your MEC
3)Send a message that the scope language is unacceptable.

Otherwise, in 3 years the discussion will be over who is going to fly 90-100 seat aircraft.

And 3 years after that, who is going to fly 100-150 seat aircraft.

And 3 years after that .....

 

[John Pennekamp]

By your own admission....."You said the pilots would vote it down if it had ANY scope relief."
Well Einstein, we haven't voted on it yet! It's called a TA approved by the MEC, and has yet to go to the membership for ratification. I know I will be voting NO!
737

So, Einstien, enlighten us... we all knew how you would vote, but will the TA pass? And if not, will you recall your MEC? Will you really fall on your swords and kill Delta Airlines over thirty 76 seat CRJ-900s? The world waits... tick tock...

 

[Superpilot92]

So, Einstien, enlighten us... we all knew how you would vote, but will the TA pass? And if not, will you recall your MEC? Will you really fall on your swords and kill Delta Airlines over thirty 76 seat CRJ-900s? The world waits... tick tock...

If you dont stop the scope issue now when do you stop it boss? Before long its going to be Regionals flying all domestic ops until a pilot group stands up and stops this. I dont know about you but i want to move on to a major some day and everytime a regional gets bigger planes its just that many less pilot jobs available in the future at the majors leve. JMHO

 

[BenderGonzales]

"everytime a regional gets bigger planes its just that many less pilot jobs available in the future at the majors."

Ok, ok. Hold it RIGHT there buddy. There is absolutely NO common sense permitted on Flightinfo.com

 

[John Pennekamp]

If you dont stop the scope issue now when do you stop it boss? Before long its going to be Regionals flying all domestic ops until a pilot group stands up and stops this. I dont know about you but i want to move on to a major some day and everytime a regional gets bigger planes its just that many less pilot jobs available in the future at the majors leve. JMHO

Well, actually, I have no desire to move to a "major". I also have no desire to fly their aircraft for less money. I would say that quite a few of us at ASA feel that way. Maybe that's why we're losing 30 pilots a month to Airtran.

Regardless, I seriously doubt the domesday scenario that mainline is replaced by DCI. Such is simply not practical due to the size of the RJ (even at 100 seats). What are they going to do, retire the 767s and send 20 RJs to NYC and 100 to Florida each day? I doubt it. They also aren't going to get the droves of "500 hour pilots" willing to fly a 777 for $50 an hour. That's fantasy. What will happen is that DAL will have the flexibility to limit capacity on money losing narrowbody routes by putting smaller and less costly aircraft on the route. Not having that flexibility is what finally put the airline in bankruptcy (in addition to piss-poor top heavy management).

The pilots sticking to their guns on scope shows a complete and selfish misunderstanding of the situation over there. The DMEC can't bury its head in the sand forever by continuing to demand that the airline should continue for fly large aircraft on money losing routes. They also can't call to limit flying below 100 seats, but then say that they don't want it either. Will they ever fly a CRJ in any model or configuration? I say no way. Their mainline egos will never allow them to fly a "Barbie Jet", regardless of the rantings of General Lee and 737 Pylt who demand that they should get the <100 seat flying.

This is why I am calling 737Pylt and General Lee on their bluff. Boys, your MEC caved, as we all said they would (and should have). Time to put the swords down... unless you plan to fall on them.

 

[michael707767]

1)Vote it down.
2)Recall your MEC
3)Send a message that the scope language is unacceptable.

Otherwise, in 3 years the discussion will be over who is going to fly 90-100 seat aircraft.

And 3 years after that, who is going to fly 100-150 seat aircraft.

And 3 years after that .....

exactly. The problem is the MEC is made up of guys who will be gone before the Scope caving gets to them.

 

[Lollie]

I'm waiting on pins and needles over this too, we're either moving across the country in 7 weeks or we aren't if the deal fails.....Rurrrrrr!

Lollie

 

[F9 Buff]

Soon it will be widebodies only at mainline and if you flying narrowbody you are at a regional.

Hasn't Mesa been supposedly looking at adding the 737 to their fleet for the last few years.

 

[737 Pylt]

So, Einstien, enlighten us...

I already did.....See the above quote about it being a "Tentative Agreement."

we all knew how you would vote, but will the TA pass? And if not, will you recall your MEC? Will you really fall on your swords and kill Delta Airlines over thirty 76 seat CRJ-900s? The world waits... tick tock...

I can't answer for the other 6000 pilots. If I had that answer, I'd be a tarot card reader as well.....Recall the mec??? Sounds pretty reasonable to me, this is a POS, plain and simple. If this is the "best they could do," then Heaven help anyone that relies on this business for a paycheck!
737

 

[Morning Wood]

The camel's nose is already in the tent boys and girls. The time to do
something was 15 years ago when these airplanes and the flying
was being discussed. ALPA wanted nothing to do with them then
and now it's too late.

 

[generaltso]

I think it will pass by about 70%.

 

[Pat Fabin]

Sad to say

Its very early in the process, but judging from the guys I've met and flown with this weekend, this thing will pass. In general, the only people that feel threatened by the scope changes are younger junior pilots that have been furloughed or came from a civillian background. The Captains thought the scope changes were bad but didn't seem likely to say no over it. The TA is brand new...to find people this mellow without having the required 1 month brain-washing sessions from ALPA is scary.

The MD88 FO I met today was bitching about RJs in ATL. I told him just wait until this TA passes. He said "scope doesn't work anyway." I mentioned that it doesn't help that we keep weakening it every 3 years.

Too many people just don't get it. I am very hopeful that mainline DAL will start growing again but we are totally screwed at the next downturn.

I'm voting no but it think its like putting a lunchbox on the train tracks....its not going to matter. I'm truly sorry DCI guys...looks like you all will soon have bigger jets to 'compete' for....the whipsaw continues.

-PF

 

[General Lee]

Well, I just got back from a 3 day, and I had time to look at the TA, especially since I was banned for a few days for misspelling the S word (on purpose) in a quote from the movie Happy Gilmore. Anyway, I am not very happy about the scope deal, even though it seems like DCI was going to get the larger RJs anyway, even if they had to keep them at 70 seats. I am not very happy about the stranding of the furloughed pilots (even though 1 out of 4 might have come back), and not making DL return them first. It is my understanding that there very well could be some recalls, especially if we do lease some rumored MD82/83s from Alaska (the ones they are dumping for new 737s) and 757s from AA (that were TWA birds with the wrong engines for AA). We should have made it mandatory to give those pilots that wanted to come back sooner the ability to get into the LEFT seat of any NEW 70 or larger seat RJ. That should have also been in there if DL were to furlough again. But, I understand that we may not own Comair for very much longer, and if we don't own the feed, their pilots may be mad about that. I would say "tough", if you want the growth (like SkyWest pilots always do)--you would accept the deal. Mesa and PSA did that for furloughed USAir guys, and USAir didn't own them outright.

Everything else about the TA wasn't too bad, considering we are in BK, and this is a concessionary contract. It certainly is better than NW's TA. I thought we kept a lot of the work rules that they wanted to change, and the pension money ($650 million) will go to everyone and we can take that with us if DL folds in the future.

But, I will likely vote NO, just because I don't like the way they treated our currrent furloughed pilots. I think they can do better with that part. Will it pass? I don't know.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Rogue5]

But, I will likely vote NO, just because I don't like the way they treated our currrent furloughed pilots. I think they can do better with that part. Will it pass? I don't know.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Likely?!

What happened to the ranting and raving, the "50.1%" and your absolute dismissal of anything that gave away anything on scope?

General, you huff and you puff and then when it comes down the line you bend over and ask for it nicely.

Incredible!

 

[General Lee]

Likely?!

What happened to the ranting and raving, the "50.1%" and your absolute dismissal of anything that gave away anything on scope?

General, you huff and you puff and then when it comes down the line you bend over and ask for it nicely.

Incredible!

I am NOT bending over at all. I am voting NO. Will the group all vote NO, I don't know, since the company only has to satisfy 50.1%. Will some Captains and senior FOs vote YES for this thing? Maybe. Will most of the FOs and some junior Captains vote NO? Maybe. It will be close. I know my vote.

Incredible? You bet. What did you mean by that? I will vote my vote appropriately. If you think "likely" meant I won't vote no, then you are wrong.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[kngarthur]

Well, I just got back from a 3 day, and I had time to look at the TA, especially since I was banned for a few days for misspelling the S word (on purpose) in a quote from the movie Happy Gilmore. Anyway, I am not very happy about the scope deal, even though it seems like DCI was going to get the larger RJs anyway, even if they had to keep them at 70 seats. I am not very happy about the stranding of the furloughed pilots (even though 1 out of 4 might have come back), and not making DL return them first. It is my understanding that there very well could be some recalls, especially if we do lease some rumored MD82/83s from Alaska (the ones they are dumping for new 737s) and 757s from AA (that were TWA birds with the wrong engines for AA). We should have made it mandatory to give those pilots that wanted to come back sooner the ability to get into the LEFT seat of any NEW 70 or larger seat RJ. That should have also been in there if DL were to furlough again. But, I understand that we may not own Comair for very much longer, and if we don't own the feed, their pilots may be mad about that. I would say "tough", if you want the growth (like SkyWest pilots always do)--you would accept the deal. Mesa and PSA did that for furloughed USAir guys, and USAir didn't own them outright.

Everything else about the TA wasn't too bad, considering we are in BK, and this is a concessionary contract. It certainly is better than NW's TA. I thought we kept a lot of the work rules that they wanted to change, and the pension money ($650 million) will go to everyone and we can take that with us if DL folds in the future.

But, I will likely vote NO, just because I don't like the way they treated our currrent furloughed pilots. I think they can do better with that part. Will it pass? I don't know.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Sorry about that GL! WHoopededoo just sounded funny!

 

[enuffalready]

......

 

[PCL_128]

I still do not understand why people even listen to your baseless and now proven factually inaccurate 'polls of your pilot group' especially now that your MEC chair LEE JOKE sold you out, not to mention voted already, what 8-1, 10-1.

To be fair, Lee isn't to blame for this at all. He doesn't have a vote on the MEC. Only the status reps get to vote. For all we know, Lee might have argued against this thing behind closed doors last week with the MEC. The 12-1 vote doesn't include Captain Moak. He doesn't get a vote until the same time the rank-and-file does.

 

[General Lee]

When he said 'you bent over' I am sure he was referring to your MEC and Pilot group and the fact that they performed exactly as promised.

I take no glee in your paycut, your pension or your guys on the street. On the other hand, I don't care that they are on the street either or that you may lose your pension... or to quote you....... tough...

As I have said from the beginning, the only ones with any leverage are mainline guys... and once again you show your desire to your help yourselves individually far outweigh your hollow cry to HOLD the LINE....so save the BS about saving the industry..blah, blah

I still do not understand why people even listen to your baseless and now proven factually inaccurate 'polls of your pilot group' especially now that your MEC chair LEE JOKE sold you out, not to mention voted already, what 8-1, 10-1. YEah, you really have your finger on the pulse of your comrades.....what a total boob

go vote no to your troll wife... she might actually care.... oops did I cross the line again and make the GL apologists mad...

Did I say it wouldn't pass or fail by 50.1%? You must have thought I could see the future. I only know what will happen in your regional future, and it won't get any better. You may fly some larger RJs for the same wages, but that may be it. I hope not. The thing about the TA that is interesting is that DL didn't take much of anything, except a little bit of scope. I don't like that part, but the rest was really intact, including the work rules, which ONLY changed in one area---the Hawaii pilots now would have to check in 60 mins prior to a flight, instead of 90 mins. That's it for work rule changes. Everyone can't believe it. They also gave a lot for a pension that will likely go away, and that is now double what they originally proposed. Will that sway a bunch of senior Captains? Maybe. I know a lot of us still want that scope area to be tightened, and that is why I am voting no. As far as the rest of the TA, it really wasn't as bad as it could have been, and far better than the NW TA. What you can't seem to understand is that we really aren't taking a beating, and you are still scoped, whether you like it or not. You will stay that way, for your whole career at ASA. How's that seniority mix going at SkyWest?


And Wow, you slammed my wife again. She is probably a lot better looking than you have ever had or will ever have. You sure are a class act. Do you feel inadequate? Try Cialis--Lowecur said it worked.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[jetfo]

But, I understand that we may not own Comair for very much longer

What do you think will happen with Comair General?

 

[General Lee]

What do you think will happen with Comair General?

Just a guess, but I think Comair will be sold, and they may get aquired by CHQ, who will use 69 CRJ-200s for CAL feed if Expressjet doesn't give their planes up. Then, they will replace some DL feed with newer 70 seaters. Mesa might buy Comair, but I think JO has his hands full in Hawaii.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Magneto]

Is it just me or is General Lee a little more humble than before?

 

[BID]

Here is what I think, I think you need to grow up and act like a man and not some little girl. What is up with the insults?

Can you do that? I sincerley doubt it, I think all you can do is continue to yell and insult and more importantly hide behind your screen name.

General, I don't know why you put up with these clowns.

 

[General Lee]

Is it just me or is General Lee a little more humble than before?

What do you mean? I have come to some conclusions, yes. I now figure that we will see those larger RJs regardless, since SkyWest already ordered them and they will be there, whether we like it or not, even with 70 seats. I don't like it, but I guess they will have their way. The best thing we can do now is try to control the number. I just don't like the way our furloughed pilots are treated in this TA, and that is why I will vote NO.


Bye Bye--General Lee