Commander 1000 vs. Conquest II

[H.Agenda]

Commander 1000 vs. Conquest II....Which is better?

Conklin de Decker shows the economic operating stats are nearly identical.

The engines are the same, Garret -10's.

Conquest edges the Commander in most performance categories but by a very small margin.

I've had numerous in person, and written testimonials on how great the Commanders are. I have a bias toward a more rugged aircraft which I think the Commanders is..

Is the Conquest II supported well by Cessna? Service Centers?

Dispatch reliability?

Current or Past Operator/Pilot like and dislikes?

They seem to be asking an average of 200-500K cheaper on the aquisition price on Conquests IIs, is this be a wrong observation? Probably not a good sign since the Conquest 2 has a slightly bigger cabin and better performance numbers.

There seems to be no refurbing, i.e. "tip to tail" upgraded Conquest II like there are Commanders and if it not, I'm guessing its because of aircraft poor support?

 

[Learsforsale]

I can really only chime in on the price/market conditions, I really don't have any experience with either aircraft. We really don't even get involved with buying/selling them unless it's part of a trade.

You mentioned that the Cessna Conquest is a little cheaper, this may be because there are just many more Conquests for sale. The database we use indicates there are 18 for sale, out of 314 that are still flying. On the other hand when you look at the Commander 1000 market (add in the 695A and B models) There are only 7 for sale of 114 still active.

When you are deciding on which aircraft you also have to consider whether or not you will be able to resell it in a couple of years. The Conquest II market is very active. Over the past couple of years it has averaged 35 to 40 sales a year, and this year 45 sales are projected. The Commander 1000 is a much different story. The past couple of years has averaged 4-6 sales a year, and this year 10 are forecast to sell.

 

[H.Agenda]

Come oooon, someone must have an opinion on this?!?


thanks in advance...

 

[H.Agenda]

I can really only chime in on the price/market conditions, I really don't have any experience with either aircraft. We really don't even get involved with buying/selling them unless it's part of a trade.

You mentioned that the Cessna Conquest is a little cheaper, this may be because there are just many more Conquests for sale. The database we use indicates there are 18 for sale, out of 314 that are still flying. On the other hand when you look at the Commander 1000 market (add in the 695A and B models) There are only 7 for sale of 114 still active.

When you are deciding on which aircraft you also have to consider whether or not you will be able to resell it in a couple of years. The Conquest II market is very active. Over the past couple of years it has averaged 35 to 40 sales a year, and this year 45 sales are projected. The Commander 1000 is a much different story. The past couple of years has averaged 4-6 sales a year, and this year 10 are forecast to sell.

That is great info. Can you tell me how many Commander 900's sold last year? They are virtually the same plane.
Thanks..

P.S. Who is buying these Conquests IIs? Private operators? 135? Frieght Ops?

What do you think can be inferred from the low #'s of 1000's being sold?

Thanks in advance for the 20 questions...

 

[Learsforsale]

That is great info. Can you tell me how many Commander 900's sold last year? They are virtually the same plane.
Thanks..

Last year there were 2 Commander 900s sold and 5 980s sold.

P.S. Who is buying these Conquests IIs? Private operators? 135? Frieght Ops?

They really are not going to one group in particular. One is going to an Air Med operator, a bunch are going to various LLCs and Corporate flight departments. There are a couple of private operators, but not many. Most of the sales were just Conquests being shuffled around the US, there were a couple of exports to Venezuala and Europe

What do you think can be inferred from the low #'s of 1000's being sold?

Thanks in advance for the 20 questions...

There can be a couple of reasons for that. Usually when you see a stagnant market like this its just because nobody wants that particular aircraft. An example of this would be the Lear 20 series market. There are very few sales, but there are a lot available on the market (44% of the active fleet is for sale which is an astronomical amount). But the difference is that there really are not many Commander 1000s for sale (5% of the active fleet).

Which leads me to believe that owner loyalty is playing an important role in the sale's numbers.

The odd thing about the Commander 1000 market is that even though there is little movement, it is still classified as a Seller's market. Generally a market that has less then 10% of the active fleet for sale is classified as a Seller's market because demand is up and inventories are low. This usually means you can expect firm pricing and a quick sale.

 

[H.Agenda]

Thanks again for reaching into your impressive archive of stats..

One more question to completely wear out my welcome...

PC12 we have one 3 years old, considering aquiring a used one in descent condition for no more than 2.0M-2.2 at most. This second plane be it Commander, PC12 or Conquest II will be kept for a minimum of 2 years max of 4.

How significant will depreciation affect PC12? I'm assuming that Commander and Conquest will be largely unaffected.

 

[Hung Start]

I think Conquest's came out with -8's. Not an easy engine to work on, it was Garretts first attemp at electronic controls. The -10 conversion improved it a lot.
I have very little experiance in one, mostly pattern work after maint. But, I have lots of experiance in the King Air B-100. No where near as fast, but could carry a lot in style, lots of room, 270-280 real speeds, did I mention lots of room, was very reliable, and did I mention room?
At 280 would burn 275lbs per side.
Same cabin as a 200, so you might think roomy.

Hung

 

[H.Agenda]

I never considered the B-100... thanks, I'll look into it.

 

[Hung Start]

H:

I have over 3,000 hours of owning and operating the B-100. I owned it with the -6, and did the conversion to the -10.
Any info you need as far as operational, just give a holler. Happy to help.

Hung

 

[Learsforsale]

Thanks again for reaching into your impressive archive of stats..

One more question to completely wear out my welcome...

PC12 we have one 3 years old, considering aquiring a used one in descent condition for no more than 2.0M-2.2 at most. This second plane be it Commander, PC12 or Conquest II will be kept for a minimum of 2 years max of 4.

How significant will depreciation affect PC12? I'm assuming that Commander and Conquest will be largely unaffected.

Its hard to say really. I took a quick look at the list of PC-12s for sale and the difference in price between a 2000 and a 1998 is about $200K. There may be other factors at work here. Generally TT on the airframe will have the largest impact on selling price, unless there were major differences between the model years. I think the Conklin & deDecker call for a 3% depreciation on all aircraft per year, but that is a blanket estimate. Just look at the Citation Excel. 2 years ago you could pick one up for something like high 6M low 7M, now you have people asking 8.5-9M and some are asking upwards of 10M!

I can take a closer look later today, my morning will be spent scouring the ends of the earth looking for a CJ3 position or used. If anyone knows of any ...

 

[AerroMatt]

Thanks again for reaching into your impressive archive of stats..

One more question to completely wear out my welcome...

PC12 we have one 3 years old, considering aquiring a used one in descent condition for no more than 2.0M-2.2 at most. This second plane be it Commander, PC12 or Conquest II will be kept for a minimum of 2 years max of 4.

How significant will depreciation affect PC12? I'm assuming that Commander and Conquest will be largely unaffected.

PC12 is a red hot market right now. Prices for used PC12's are increasing around 15% or better annually regardless of airframe time. Seems that everytime the price of oil goes up, the PC12 apreciates in value. I guess a lot of operators see the similar performance #'s between PC12 and KA200, then see the lower fuel burn and MX of just one engine and decide they don't mind a single engine airplane after all.

I believe Western Air of GJT does upgrades on the C441. The one I used to fly went to them to get RVSM, new interior, and glass cockpit. I've never flown the Commander, but the Conquest is a great, docile airplane to fly.

 

[Tgaug6300]

H. Agenda,
Glad to see you are still looking at the Commander!

LearsForsale,
I might be able to help you with the CJ3, I'm a Demo pilot for Cessna with the CJ3.

 

[Flybet3]

Can anyone give me some rough numbers on a Pilatus and Commander 1000 hourly costs. I've been trying to find some Direct and Variable costs on the net, but haven't had any luck. Is the commander 1000 a good aircraft for "International" flying. From Dallas TX to different parts of mexico and Guatemala?

 

[SabreFlyR]

Can anyone give me some rough numbers on a Pilatus and Commander 1000 hourly costs. I've been trying to find some Direct and Variable costs on the net, but haven't had any luck. Is the commander 1000 a good aircraft for "International" flying. From Dallas TX to different parts of mexico and Guatemala?

This from the August BCA Operations Planning Guide.

Commander: Fuel = 344.25 @ 4.59/gl
Maint. labor = 276.58 @ 78.34/hr
Parts = 126.12
Misc trip exp = 67.94

PC12 Fuel = 413.79
Maint = 61.04 figured at .81 maint hrs req per flite hr.
Parts = 48.06
Misc trip exp = 63.20

 

[Flybet3]

This from the August BCA Operations Planning Guide.

Commander: Fuel = 344.25 @ 4.59/gl
Maint. labor = 276.58 @ 78.34/hr
Parts = 126.12
Misc trip exp = 67.94

PC12 Fuel = 413.79
Maint = 61.04 figured at .81 maint hrs req per flite hr.
Parts = 48.06
Misc trip exp = 63.20

Thanks, man that PC12 sure is a affordable little machine huh?

 

[H.Agenda]

H. Agenda,
Glad to see you are still looking at the Commander!

LearsForsale,
I might be able to help you with the CJ3, I'm a Demo pilot for Cessna with the CJ3.

I've always wanted the Commander, I'm just doing my best for my boss to be objective. From my research so far it looks like there is alot of scared money selling the Conquest II for fear from more AD's from Cessna.

SabreFlyer....

What is the BCA monthly report?

 

[Learsforsale]

I've always wanted the Commander, I'm just doing my best for my boss to be objective. From my research so far it looks like there is alot of scared money selling the Conquest II for fear from more AD's from Cessna.

SabreFlyer....

What is the BCA monthly report?

There is a 2006 operations planning guide in Business and Commercial Aviation this month. It breaks down every plane (from heavy piston twins to GLEX) by operating/trip/direct/hourly cost.

I tried to scan some of it in, but my scanner at home is busted so it will have to wait until Monday morning.

 

[H.Agenda]

This from the August BCA Operations Planning Guide.

Commander: Fuel = 344.25 @ 4.59/gl
Maint. labor = 276.58 @ 78.34/hr
Parts = 126.12
Misc trip exp = 67.94

PC12 Fuel = 413.79
Maint = 61.04 figured at .81 maint hrs req per flite hr.
Parts = 48.06
Misc trip exp = 63.20

Sabre...

Do you have the fuel costs swithed for the Commander and PC12?

 

[H.Agenda]

There is a 2006 operations planning guide in Business and Commercial Aviation this month. It breaks down every plane (from heavy piston twins to GLEX) by operating/trip/direct/hourly cost.

I tried to scan some of it in, but my scanner at home is busted so it will have to wait until Monday morning.

I'd love to see it. Thanks again.

 

[SabreFlyR]

Sabre...

Do you have the fuel costs swithed for the Commander and PC12?

No- this is straight out of the current Business and Commercial Aviation Operations Planning guide of August 2006.

I have not flown either, but quick math shows the PC12 burning 89 gal/hr and the commander at 75 gal/hr. I sure these figures are for and average trip.

I am on the road so I don't have access to my scanner or I would post both here.