Comair. Would you do it all over again?

[Shark]

if you had to do it all over agin would you go to comair, or would you go with another regional. What are you reason(s).

 

[V-1]

Is this a serious question?

This industry changes constantly. The "best" regional airline today may be one of the "worst" places to work tomorrow. Today, from what I read, Comair is one of the premier regional airlines. Two years ago I had no intention of working for them, because I couldn't justify buying a $1200/mo. job. Plus, they've already hired over 180 pilots so far this year.

Would you rather be junior today at American Eagle, Mesa, Mesaba, CoEx, or any of the U.S. Airways feeders?

That doesn't leave many desirable places to work at this time. There's ASA, they still have turboprops though and, not to berate those airplanes, if given a choice, I'd prefer to fly a jet. There's ACA, but they fly the slow, unreliable Dornier jet. Skywest might be an option if you want to live among Mormons in Salt Lake City. I think you have to know someone at Air Wisconsin to get hired there, as my ATP, 3600 t.t. and 2200 multi flown in Michigan's worst weather was only good for a "Sorry, but you aren't what we're looking for at this time." letter last summer.

For me, it wasn't a question of which regional to work for, it was whether to work for a regional at all. ExecJet had some great opportunities, and still does. It was a tough call, but I think, for now, I made the right choice.

Of course, if ASA's pilot group manages to squeeze Comair +20% from their management during contract negotiations, I might wish I'd wanted to fly a Brasilia a year ago! Good luck to my brothers at ASA!

 

[Pilot877]

Actually, there are far more CRJ's at ACA than there are DoJets. It seems like most of the new hires are going into the CRJ. Besides, on most of the routes the time difference is only about 10 mins or so according to people who have flown them. But I would rather fly our mighty J41 than be miserable at some of the other operations out there.

 

[surplus1]

Today, from what I read, Comair is one of the premier regional airlines. Two years ago I had no intention of working for them, because I couldn't justify buying a $1200/mo. job. Plus, they've already hired over 180 pilots so far this year.

Interesting, but you left me somewhat confused. Since your profile mentions that you've flown the CL-65, but you say you wouldn't work at Comiar, don't work at ASA, don't work at ACA, don't work at SKYW, who does that leave?

Air Wisconsin? Midway? or Pinnacle? Which one of those would you like to compare to Comair?

I've worked for Comair for considerably more than a decade. In that time, nobody ever bought a job at Comair. Two years ago a new hire was not makeing much money, but $1200/mo? where did you get that number?

Comiar isn't "one of the premier" regional airlines. It has been the leading regional airline for many years. The most profitable, the most efficient, the most innovative and the best managed. An industry leader consistently from day one.

Most of what other "premier" regional airlines are doing today, they copied from Comair.

Hope you're happy wherever you are. Sorry if you didn't make it. Guess I'm wrong though, just remembered you never tried.

 

[TankerPuke]

"Skywest might be an option if you want to live among Mormons in Salt Lake City."

Yeah - those friggin Mormons make life a living HELL in SLC...run...run as fast as you can!!!

PUKE

 

[Kingairrick]

Sign me up for a CRJ in SLC anytime, of course, Cincy can be fun too!

 

[Guam360]

Surplus1,
are you smoking crack again, for three or four years in a row, ending Oct. 1999. Everyone, EVERYONE, paid $11,000, for their job. You were too old and senior to even care.

 

[Beechnut]

I've worked for Comair for considerably more than a decade. In that time, nobody ever bought a job at Comair.

What? How is it you don't know this basic fact then expect to be credible for everything else you say after it?

S.

 

[V-1]

Surplus1,

My apologies for my mediocre literary talent. I should have proofread that before posting. Two years ago I had no intention of working for Comair. At that time, correct me if I'm wrong, Comair was pay-for-training. Their workrules and pay were also not competitive with other avenues (outside of flying for a regional airlines) that I was qualified for.

In the mid to late 90's, Comair was charging new-hires about $10,000 for initial training, I believe. Many of the pilots at Comair have told me they paid for training. I don't want to turn this into a PFT v. non-PFT thread, but I, like many of us, had to claw my way up without asking mommy and daddy for money so I could be "qualified" for a job. For those that did, that's their choice and privilege. Everyone has to do what is in their own interest. If my memory is correct, Comair dropped the PFT about two years ago.

After two years flying freight, I had paid my school debts down enough that I could afford to work for a regional airline. I read through the new tentative agreement Comair's MEC negotiated and decided Comair had become a good place to be, perhaps even retire from if things got bad and I had to stay there a while. This was early last August.

The $1200/mo. figure I quoted was the income level I figured a new-hire reserve F.O. would have taken home after taxes a couple of years ago. This was based on the monthly guarantee, including my best guess for per-diem. Please remember that I was unfamiliar with all the convoluted pay schemes that exist at the regionals (duty and trip rigs, minimum day, etc.). I only knew simple math. The numbers I had for a first-year EMB-120 F.O. two years ago were roughly $16.50/hr, 75 hour guarantee. Those numbers might not have been accurate, but they were the best I had.

I was earning $44k/yr. flying freight and passenger charters. Paying $10k for a $15/k per year job didn't make sense to me. After I learned the PFT had been dropped and saw the new contract, I applied and was hired at Comair. I'm happy to be here, holding my breath until the company grows as much as was promised during the interview.

The main purpose for my post was to emphasize that the industry is constantly changing. Seven years ago, I took my first airline flight. I was already a private pilot at that time. I rode a brand-new CRJ from Tulsa to Cincinnati, then a Brasilia from CVG to BHM, I believe, then on to Orlando. I was going to look at a flight school (called Comair Aviation Academy) I'd seen advertised that claimed they could make me into an airline pilot. When I got there I found it would cost me $40k to finish through CFI, then an additional $10k for the Airline Qualification Program. No financial aid was available at that time, and I couldn't afford it. That left me with some disappointment, but I found another way to reach my goal - which at times didn't include working for Comair anymore. Funny how things work out.

Thanks for asking me to clarify the confusion I created, Surplus1. My apologies again. I enjoy reading your posts and hope to fly with you someday. Maybe I already have.

Regards,
V-1

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

"Skywest might be an option if you want to live among Mormons in Salt Lake City."

I live among them everyday, in my own house. Yes run they are all crazy evil people get away before they get you!

 

[RJPilott]

Thanks for asking me to clarify the confusion I created, Surplus1. My apologies again.

Regards,
V-1

V-1, there is no reason to clarify or apologize. Most of the informed know what you meant. I think Guam360 said it best.

I bet Surplus1 doesnt even realize Comair went on strike with a mass exodus that followed.

 

[Shark]

lets get back to the subject, if you work for comair would you do it again or would you go to another regional? and what makes comair so great or not?

 

[Shark]

i get what you're saying, but to make the must informed desicion i can i need the information of others. i know what my conditions i have to weight but want the advice of those in the direction i'm headed, since they're where i want to be.

 

[Patriot328]

There's ACA, but they fly the slow, unreliable Dornier jet.

I get paid more to fly that slow Dorkjet around than most regional guys get paid to fly the 50 seat CRJ or ERJ (yes, I relize Comair isn't on that list). Not a bad thing, considering the 328 is nothing more than a EMB-120 with a couple extra seats and is in fact smaller than a Dash 8. Granted, it's a helluva lot nicer, though!


There probably are some good reasons not to come to ACA, but the Dornier isn't one of them. The fact our growth (projected today) will stop in 2004 is a better one (that's the end of our scheduled aircraft delieveries, hiring for attrition (what attrition?) only after that). However, two years is a long time and who knows what will happen between now and then. If DAL or UAL wants us to get more Dorniers (or another A/C), our company can do it.


For anyone out there lucky enought to pick between airlines, go with the one that has a base close to where you want to live. Commuting sucks, and it looks like we're all going to be at the regionals a lot longer than most of us thought.

 

[guitarflyer]

Skywest might be an option if you want to live among Mormons in Salt Lake City.

Hey I love Mormons...they taste just like chicken!!

Just kidding. SLC is great & SkyWest is awesome. And SLC isn't our only base. We've got 'em in CO, AZ, OR, and lots in CA.

I'm not Mormon, but guess what...I don't have an attitude about them, and I get along great.

So if you have a problem or an attitude---stay away, we don't want you anyway.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus1,
are you smoking crack again, for three or four years in a row, ending Oct. 1999. Everyone, EVERYONE, paid $11,000, for their job. You were too old and senior to even care.

You are correct, I am old and senior. I'm also very familar with the "Comair Academy" and its $10 or $11K AQP program. It is true that prospective employees of Comair had to attend a program there prior to employment but that program didn't "buy" anyone a job. It is OK with me to call it PFT or not as you prefer. Whatever it was, it was not desirable.

I take issue with your statement that I didn't care. If you knew who I am and what role I played, including with relation to that "program" and its elimination, you would not say what you did.

I'll chalk it up to your lack of knowledge and forget it but I will say this, much of what you have at Comair today, you have because of my work and my efforts, along with many other dedicated people. Enjoy it.

Take the chip off your shoulder and try to become a Comair pilot more than in name.

 

[DarnNearaJet]

Say what you will about the Dornier Jet, but unless you're flying something military, nothing outclimbs it.

Nothing like chiming the F/A 1 min and 52 seconds after takeoff. (I love doing that when off-line folk are in the back.)

 

[surplus1]

Thanks for asking me to clarify the confusion I created, Surplus1. My apologies again. I enjoy reading your posts and hope to fly with you someday. Maybe I already have.

Regards,
V-1

Thank you for your reply. There is no need to apologize, I just wanted to understand where you were coming from and now I do. I appreciate your taking the time.

I'm sorry that the AQP kept you from getting here sooner. It was a bad program and the pilot group never wanted it or approved of it. We finally got it eliminated.

The Comair union did not mount a crusade against it for two reasons: 1) the pilots in the program were not employees of Comair and 2) our contract already contained a prohibition against any Comair pilot paying for training.

It was not possible for us to negotiate a provision of our contract that covered a subsidiary of Comair Holdings, Inc., which is what the "Academy" was. I know the ads say that the Academy is owned by the Airline, but in reality it never has been. That is admittedly a technicality, but it is one that precludes our ability to negotiate anything that happens there. Pilots in the AQP were not employees of the airline and were not guaranteed that they would become employees of the airline (although many did and I have little doubt that the Academy people "sold it" that way.) In fact, it was similar to the SWA type rating deal, except you didn't have the option of doing it elsewhere if you wanted to work at Comair. Many "graduates" of the AQP also went to other airlines. Therefore, Comair pilots decided to invest their negotiating capital elsewhere.

I didn't mean to "rag" on you and if I came across that way, I'm sorry.

In responding to the basic question of the thread, the answer for me is YES, I would do it again in a heartbeat.

You must understan V-1 that I am a real Comair pilot. What I feel and how I feel about Comair pilots is difficult to put into words. By that I mean I'm not passing time, not trying to get experience to go somewhere else, have been here long enough to know a little about the good times and the not so good times and to contribute something to the culture of Comair. If any Comair pilot is threatened, I'll not hesitate to come to his defense.

After you've been here a while you will learn that "culture". If you like it, it will be great to have you on board. If you don't, then I hope you'll be able to move on to whatever you prefer.

All I ask is that while you are here, be and act like a Comair pilot and make us all proud to share with you. If you decide to leave, try to leave what you found a little bit better than it was when you got here. I hope that's not to much to ask.

In other words, stand shoulder to shoulder with your fellow Comair pilots and help to keep us the proud and outstanding people that we are. Don't ever look down on another pilot, and that includes those that are not Comair pilots. If you find a brother lacking, put out your hand and help him to rise up. Don't ever step on him, just because you can.

If you are willing to do those things, you are welcome among us. Whatever you paid or didn't pay is irrelevant.

Maybe we will share a cockpit one day and maybe not. In either case, nice talking with you and best wishes.

Best regards,
Surplus1
CMR

 

[surplus1]

I bet Surplus1 doesnt even realize Comair went on strike with a mass exodus that followed.

Surplus1 IS a Comair pilot. Yes, some people left during the strike, but "mass exodus"? That's baloney.

 

[V-1]

All I ask is that while you are here, be and act like a Comair pilot and make us all proud to share with you. If you decide to leave, try to leave what you found a little bit better than it was when you got here. I hope that's not to much to ask.

I understand your feelings towards Comair and the efforts you've made to build the company and improve working conditions for fellow pilots. As I stated, had you and our fellow Comair brothers not refused to blink during last year's strike, my career path would most likely have taken a different path. Because of your efforts, I enjoy better workrules and pay than the overwhelming majority of regional airline pilots. The efforts of you and our Comair brothers are why I decided to pursue a career at Comair again. It's a great place to be now, and appears it will be in the future. I'll do my part to facilitate that future.

 

[surplus1]

It's a great place to be now, and appears it will be in the future. I'll do my part to facilitate that future.

Thanks bro and welcome aboard. There's a Comair jet in a lot of people's futures and this is still "The Best Little Airline In America".

PS.
It was always a great place to be, even though there were a few things we didn't like. However, the Comair spirit will gradually disappear under the Delta yoke. The job will still be there though.

 

[abenaki]

Hey Shark,

I don't think you ever got a decent reply to your question and I don't know that mine will be much better, but I'll try.....

Please keep in mind that I left to come here to Net Jets as a result of the strike and a fairly well-informed opinion that it was possible that DAL was simply going to shut Comair down and re-organize the whole thing.......There were a number of things leading me to NJA and I put my "money" on that avenue and am quite happy in that decision......

I'm not making the money that I would over at Comair but I hope that will change with OUR next contract where I think I will be able to well-surpass what I would have made there. But, that may be nothing more than wishful thinking......

In my opinion, you will not find a better group of pilots and flight attendants than you will encounter at Comair. They fought one heckofa battle against tremendous odds. The cohesiveness of the pilot and pilot/fa group was tremendous. Of course, I attribute a lot of that cohesiveness to the stupidity of the Lorenzo goons that Comair management brought in to break the union. Their tactics were old and well-known, so every time they pulled something it just p.o.'ed the pilot group and made them ever so more resolved......But they never waivered......I think the strike vote was 99.7%......

So, if you want to work some some pretty awesome people, I can't think of a finer group to belong too.

I started there in '95 and yes, I PAID FOR MY TRAINING.......If you don't like it, too bloody bad. (That's not directed at you Shark, but all those on their soapboxes who look down on others who did pay for their training without knowing the circumstances, economic climate ad naseum who somehow feel fit to judge others actions without walking in theri shoes) I was 38 years old, out of my family businesses that had been sold and out of my home that was on family property that had been sold (all beyond my control). I didn't have a lot of choice and needed a career path. So, I wrote the check after flight instructing and "paying my dues" flying night charter work in the winter time in the northeast. I had about 1900 hours when I got to Comair and 500 multi in Barons and 310's, mostly.

Like most places the training is intense but I think pretty good. Not as good as here at NJA (try 32 hours of sim time for the CRJ at Comair versus 52 hours of sim time for the Citation "X" at NJA....and that's just one example) but darned good overall.

Being halfway senior when I left, I had a reasonble schedule and I imagine that you can get a better one now with their new contract. The pay has increased so (I assume) that new hires make enough so they don't qualify for food stamps anymore......The pay tops out at, what, about 100K after 18 years, isn't it?

I think the minimum days off is up to 11 from 10. Reserve may be better now, but being on reserve basically sucks. Maybe the reserve rules have changed a bit with the new contract, but I was on reserve long enough to know that reserve isn't much fun. (No real reserve at NJA in the traditional sense.)

Like a lot of places, seniority rules so the more senior you get, the better life you will have.

I don't have a lot to compare it to, but I thought the RJ was a fine airplane with some quirks just like any other airplane.......It handles well, is reasonably reliable, has good systems, great synoptic pages for the systems, it's quiet, a comfortable cockpit, and really won't bite you......It was a dog above about FL250 (where the "X" is just picking up a head of steam ready to blast through the 30's at .84-.89 at 1500FPM assuming ISA isn't too hot).......

Comair's route system is expanding and they're going to a lot more places than they used too.......I got weary of going to all the "flat" spots in the mid-west........The overnights tend to have you either getting in late or waking up early for your "week"......
You're flying one end of the clock or the other most of the time. They still have "high-speeds" which are a whole other story but some guys like them and bid the new high speed lines.......

The other question you have to ask yourself is whether you want to work for a company like that. Frankly, I thought that the management there pre-strike was just plain evil. I never thought one group of human beings would act with such deliberate malisciousness against another especially when they were all making so much bloody money. The level of avarice was just unbelieveable to me.......and their tactics where abhorrent. To paraphrase Winston Churchill, "Never was so much evil done to so many by so few"......

DAL allowed Comair management to blow $780 million (by ALPA's estimate) on that strike in order to maintain power and control and NOT let the "regional" ( a misnomer if there ever was one) pilot achieve what s/he truly deserved. Frankly, I'm not sure that I could have gone back to work for those people........I know this, my stress level is zip compared to what it was......But, you have to recognize that it is significantly better over there from what my friends there tell me.....though some beg to differ even to today......

Like someone on here said, this business is a big dice roll.....Listen to your gut, talk to people, do your research and make a decision.......

I learned a lot at Comair.....no doubt of that.....and one of the greatest things that I learned was that there are some fantastic people in the world that I will be proud to have as my friends until the day that I "fly west".......You should have seen the "drive-by's" that the Comair F/A's did in support of the picketing pilots......You never saw a group stand taller or walk more proudly than those picketers when those F/A's drove by honking their horns and creating all kinds of headaches for Comair managements pr people. And you might be suprised at the number of jet jocks with tears in their eyes when those drive-by's occurred......quite a sight......

Would I do it again? Yes. As I said I learned a LOT about a LOT of things and not just flying airplanes either.......Life is a journey and the experiences we have along the way are what its all about.......Would I rather be sitting in some airplane making $150k a year? Of course. But, that didn't happen for me and I know many a "major" airline pilot who made it to the "show" when I didn't get as "lucky" (and believe me, if anyone tells you that there isn't a great deal of luck or fate involved in this business, they're full of it) who are now on furlough while I'm having a blast at NJA thanking God for not letting me get to the majors so I could be furloughed.......

I don't know if this helps.....I hope it does.......Try to find some current Comair pilots who would be willing to talk with you a while about how it is over there now as compared to pre-strike......I doubt that you'll find it to be nirvana, but maybe a good place to go......

Take care. Best wishes.....

 

[Shark]

thanks very much for your response, you finally got to my question.