Comair Pilots At Fault In Crash

[172driver]

I think (per comair ops) the heading bug is supposed to be on runway heading unless the turn is going to be conducted below 400' agl, which is fairly rare.

As I remember it, you bug the assigned hdg for the turn if it's at or below 400' agl, which would make it not so rare. I could be wrong though, it's been a while.

 

[rtmcfi]

Sorry to say but adding commuting to reasons why you are fatigued is simply a careless and awful thing to do to your passengers. If your commute causes you to be more tired then you either need to take earlier flights or move. Time and time again guys will take a red eye flight or a super early flight so they don't have to commute in the day before for an early show. Sometimes it will make it so they are awake past the 16 hour duty limit.

It is their own darn fault for being tired. Those who commute and freely admit to being tired because of their commute are a danger to this profession. It's funny to hear commuters whine about fatigue when a most of their fatigue is self induced. If you find yourself always fatigued on overnights where you have plenty of rest then you have a responsibility to your passengers to either move or bite the bullet and commute in the day before.

Perhaps commuting should be banned!

 

[wrigley23]

Perhaps commuting should be banned!

Sure why not, but then all New York, Chicago, DC, LA... etc bases will have to be disbanded or the airlines will have to pay significant cost of living adjustments for these domiciles (will never happen). God knows no one can afford to live in these cities with what they pay us unless 1)have suga momma 2)live with 20 people in a crash pad 3)convince mom to move there and live with her. number one is the only appealing answer for me.

 

[skyslug]

172driver is correct. It's AT or BELOW 400 feet.

Our FSM has been modified to somewhat ensure that runway alignment/assigment is correct for takeoff.

However simply stating as Aerromatt has said "heading xxx degrees, bug set at xxx degrees" would not aliviate the problem either.

I believe that simply verbalizing on the lineup check, before you've entered the runway the RUNWAY you've been assigned to line up on, visually check the runway signs, markings, charts, etc (it just takes a moment...there is NO hurry and can be done while holding short) would be a good item to include. IE: "lineup check 18L", reply "18L confirmed, blah blah blah line up check complete"

Or basically just being aware of your surroundings, fatigue level, crew experience, departure procedure, airport area, etc would help also.

 

[KingNothing]

Yep, those Comair guys are sure something. Keep asking me for my medical when I jumpseat while your wearing your hat doing your flow.

 

[DrewBlows]

Yep, those Comair guys are sure something. Keep asking me for my medical when I jumpseat while your wearing your hat doing your flow.

Find another ride if you don't like being asked for your medical.

 

[IronCityBlue]

um, yeah...

Yep, those Comair guys are sure something. Keep asking me for my medical when I jumpseat while your wearing your hat doing your flow.

Gotta throw the BS flag out on this one. I've never seen any pilot doing their flow while wearing their hat. Ever. If its your intention to dis a particular group of pilots you should be able to come up with something better than that.

 

[HelloNewman]

Perhaps commuting should be banned!

lol but if you did that pilots would have a lot less to whine about! Commute related rants account for about 60-70% of all pilot whining and pilots don't feel right unless they are whining about something.

 

[Minimaniac]

If there are too many items to complete during a short taxi out, and blah blah blah.... slow down! Not saying that applies to the Comair crew, but it does apply to the people trying to defend the crew with a lame excuse. There is nothing wrong with TELLING tower that you need a few minutes to run some checklists. Sure, ORD tower may have a problem with that, but it never seems to stop seasoned UAL and AA guys from saying it anyway. Be a professional. Do what you need to do. Get everything done AND take a look outside BEFORE taxiing onto the runway. Setting a heading bug isn't going to make or break the situation. Both pilots looking outside and knowing their position before committing to takeoff will.

And for the poor excuse of commuting adding to fatigue... commute responsibly! I commute, and yes I have pushed the limits on actual time awake before. And I learned that I can be near useless by the end of a long day. Commute in the day before if you have a long day. There are serious downsides to commuting in terms of time lost at home. If you choose to commute, then you choose to do so responsibly. If you can't handle the responsibility, move to base.

Again, I am not saying that the above applies to the Comair crew. I am saying that the excuses some of you are making for the crew are poor ones. if you are feeling tired when you start a day (maybe not so tired to call fatigued, but still not quite awake yet) VERBALIZE this to your other crew member. Tell them that either you need some extra watching, or that you need for things to run a little slower for a while to give you time to get up to speed.

 

[c140billy]

one thing that I have noticed on the Delta checklist when I jumpseat with them is that one of their items is "Threats" on the before taxi checklist. This could be anything either one of them feels as a threat such as that they are tired, late, LLWS in area, ILS GS is out at destination airport and it is going to snow really hard, etc.... Anytime you look at an accident and say, oh crap that could have been me..... well that is why it is called an accident. That is why people are defending the crew. It could have happened to the best pilot on this board, which is everyone reading this post right now in their own mind thinking I would never do that. everyone should read the report that ALPA put out on the website and LEARN from this situation and realize everything about the accident so that you understand what could threaten you. Not really looking for more checklist items, but that is a good one.

 

[Crossky]

Gold stars to Minimaniac and c140billy ! Good words my friends.

 

[Comrade Duck]

We need to quit making excuses for these guys. They took off on the wrong runway when they shouldn't have. There is no excuse for that. As was posted already though, it was an accident and unfortunately they do happen. By making excuses we pass the accountability off onto something else rather than addressing what really happened. It was the pilot's fault, lets learn from it, and hope that it doesn't happen again.

God forbid I do something like that sometime during my carear, I would hope that you guys would learn from my mistakes.

 

[c140billy]

was that a set up? I will learn from your mistakes and never spell career wrong

 

[Papps]

Ok this tread needs to trail off into oblivion. Lets just all agree that fatigue played no factor, talking before checklists have begun when the cabin door is open is the main cause of 98% of accidents.

These guys made a careless mistake that had no other factors involved with it, and now that they have messed that up once, we all agree that our superior powers of aviation will keep us from making any mistakes.

Now we must write another ops.manual of made up callouts, and killer item verbal checklists that are different and taylor made to fit each pilot.

I will send a copy of this response to the FAA and NTSB and let them know that we have the crew fatigue/runway incursion problem figured out. Crew fatigue doesn't exist, and runway incursions only happen if you talk about stuff before closing the pax door.

 

[Comrade Duck]

was that a set up? I will learn from your mistakes and never spell career wrong

Well, there you go. I am glad you could learn from my mistakes.

Ok this tread needs to trail off into oblivion. Lets just all agree that fatigue played no factor, talking before checklists have begun when the cabin door is open is the main cause of 98% of accidents.

These guys made a careless mistake that had no other factors involved with it, and now that they have messed that up once, we all agree that our superior powers of aviation will keep us from making any mistakes.

Now we must write another ops.manual of made up callouts, and killer item verbal checklists that are different and taylor made to fit each pilot.

I will send a copy of this response to the FAA and NTSB and let them know that we have the crew fatigue/runway incursion problem figured out. Crew fatigue doesn't exist, and runway incursions only happen if you talk about stuff before closing the pax door.

Sure there were contributing factors. That doesn't change the fact though that the blame lies with the unfortunate pilots involved. Some of you, whether it is because of friendship or just the commonality of sharing the same profession, would like to place the blame elsewhere.

We are a society of victims. It's not the pedafiles fault, pornography is to blame. Don't blame the abusive husband he learned that behavior from watching his own father. Drug and alcohol abuse are no longer addictions, they are a sickness or disease. Nobody is responsible anymore.

It was a tragic accident. The pilots involved weren't the victims though. The victims were the 51 people riding in the back that had trusted the pilots to make good decisions. They didn't.

None of us are immune. We all make mistakes. All we can do now is learn from their mistakes so it doesn't happen again.

I intend no disrespect towards these pilots. I am just tired of people making excuses.

 

[Crossky]

I will send a copy of this response to the FAA and NTSB and let them know that we have the crew fatigue/runway incursion problem figured out. Crew fatigue doesn't exist, and runway incursions only happen if you talk about stuff before closing the pax door.

I thought you were for real and then your ridicule dissapointed me Papps. Ok that's it I can't stand it anymore.

My reality check happened a month ago Papps. After 6,300 hrs and coming up on 1,000 Jet PIC and 2,300 TPIC, I had a very humbling experience. I had a runway incursion at a major towered airport with intersecting runways. Thank God they weren't using the runway we (I) wandered onto, only because it was 07:10 AM. Yes, they were contributing factors.

I got lucky, talked to the tower super on the land line twice and apologized profusely. The FO and I were absolutely going to file ASAP reports until the ATC manager talked me out of it. They had a smoking gun and evidence, everything on us; and would have had to follow up on it had we submitted ANY paperwork, including ASAP and NASA reports. We would've had a letter of investigation/correction in our files guaranteed if we had filed any reports, he said basically they would be obligated to present any actual evidence. Not every controller is going to be willing to promise no paperwork on their part for the same on yours with a runway incursion. Like I said we got lucky.

No I won't tell you where it occured.

Anything which improves flight deck discipline is a good thing.

Yes, I've changed the way I taxi and operate on the ground.

Fly safe.

 

[Steve]

I thought you were for real and then your ridicule dissapointed me Papps. Ok that's it I can't stand it anymore.

My reality check happened a month ago Papps. After 6,300 hrs and coming up on 1,000 Jet PIC and 2,300 TPIC, I had a very humbling experience. I had a runway incursion at a major towered airport with intersecting runways. Thank God they weren't using the runway we (I) wandered onto, only because it was 07:10 AM. Yes, they were contributing factors.

I got lucky, talked to the tower super on the land line twice and apologized profusely. The FO and I were absolutely going to file ASAP reports until the ATC manager talked me out of it. They had a smoking gun and evidence, everything on us; and would have had to follow up on it had we submitted ANY paperwork, including ASAP and NASA reports. We would've had a letter of investigation/correction in our files guaranteed if we had filed any reports, he said basically they would be obligated to present any actual evidence. Not every controller is going to be willing to promise no paperwork on their part for the same on yours with a runway incursion. Like I said we got lucky.

No I won't tell you where it occured.

Anything which improves flight deck discipline is a good thing.

Yes, I've changed the way I taxi and operate on the ground.

Fly safe.

Great post. Thank you