Comair or COEX

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

I am not your Dad, but if I was you'd be grounded! Just joking. Anyways, I enjoyed reading your response and see some holes. Remember, Delta owns you. Delta owns Comair. But, I understand that you have your own management. Apparently, your management approved hiring Delta Furloughees---because why wouldn't they? They are probably more experienced than some of the flight instructors from your academy. But no, your MEC said there would be a CRM problem. That is the truth, and it hurts, doesn't it? Hey, I thought you said most Comair pilots like Delta guys? Not your MEC. And that will hurt you down the road.
ASA's MEC agreed to it, and Delta didn't mind. Sure, there are only 13 Delta furloughees at ASA, but that was good enough--and it was a great investment for them. They will have a chance to go up to Delta---and for only 13 seats. And you stated something about preferential hiring versus hiring military pilots.
In my class there was 6 regional pilots and 24 military pilots--and I didn't complain. I bet the ratio will be better than that for the ASA guys. Hiring started back up again in '96, and they hired over 3000 pilots in 5 years. Yes, alittle over 1000 are furloughed, but the people in the beginning of the wave are safe. The ASA guys will be in the beginning of the next wave after the furloughs return. And, we are currently in arbitration and a ruling will be out soon. As soon as this Iraq thing is over with Delta will regain its strength and things will get better.

I have nothing against specific Comair pilots (except Lawson) and do not treat anyone poorly. I talk to them on the jumpseats and ask them all about the CRJ and their new routes etc. I do not try to act like their "Dad" and treat them with respect. I just don't agree with their MEC's policies and think it will hurt them in the end, but I do not treat anyone poorly. We can agree to disagree, but this whole mess will not help you or them in the end. If you want to change that, tell it to Lawson. If you don't, then accept the consequences. Scope is in the eye of the beholder. Look at your situation with Chit-talk--and your MCO debacle. Don't you wish you could have kept some of that flying? That is how we feel.

By the way, to the guy/girl who wanted to know which airline is better--COEX or Comair---both will be better in better times. Each will have only RJ's. COEX seems to have more crew bases, but they are in crappy cities---like EWR, CLE, and hot Houston. (Although DEN was discussed if UAL goes Chap 7) I'd say study them both and read up on the ups and downs. Right now any jet job is a good one.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[House_X]

Comair or COEX?

9/11 Furlough count...

Comair - 0

COEX- 300+

No competition....

And you can bet when Bombs over Bagdad starts, that letter from COEX about the April recalls will be "recalled".

Go with Comair!

 

[mckpickle]

DTN, looks like you've made your choice. Good for you and good luck. Heck good luck to all of us. Its not an easy choice but I think this discussion has at least enlightened us all as to diferent factions of the people you'd be working with at either company.

On another note. I see you were in the ATR at express. I just left her after 6 years. Well I cant say that things will be as fun as they were on the old girl. The jet is kind of like a real airplane with a bad Portuguese translator. Oh well just hope we dont go to war and you'll be back sitting reserve and whinning with the rest of us. Congrats on your little girl. Please dont let her ever date a pilot , and I've got the first beer!

 

[ACE]

General Lee,
Your right Delta owns Comair, not the Delta pilot group or the Delta flight attendents. I'm sorry, but I think you all need to be reminded of this from the way you come off sometimes. I know you did not specifically say the Delta pilot group owns Comair, but from all the your posts over the past year, you sure as hell infer it. You really need to get a life and grow up buddy. Get off your high horse. And you wonder why the Comair pilot group don't want the Delta pilots working with us. Look at how you act.

 

[Hovernut]

originally posted by General Lee

They are probably more experienced than some of the flight instructors from your academy.

Hey! I resemble that remark!!
....closing in on that 1st 100 hours....look out contaminated runways and special use airports!!

 

[surplus1]

Surplus1,

I am not your Dad, but if I was you'd be grounded! Just joking.

That's ok, seeing as how you're not my Dad and you aren't ever going to be, I have no problem. If I was your brother, I'd kick your butt. Not joking. You don't have to worry any 'cause I'm not.

Anyways, I enjoyed reading your response and see some holes. Remember, Delta owns you.

The only holes are in what you said originally and what you say in your reply. Yes, Delta owns Comair. We know that all too well. You seem to think that the Delta MEC owns both Delta and Comair. The fact is you don't own either one.

Delta owns Comair. But, I understand that you have your own management. Apparently, your management approved hiring Delta Furloughees---because why wouldn't they?

Sure we have our own management -- totally controlled by Delta management. "Our" management doesn't approve hiring any furloughees that don't resign their seniority. They haven't changed that. Since you point out that Delta "owns" Comair, then why didn't the Delta MEC ask Delta management to place your furloughees at Comair? It could be done with a phone call. Why didn't your DMEC get Delta management to agree to your "offer" of preferential hiring for CMR and ASA before it made its so-called proposal?

I'll tell you why --- because your MEC's "proposal" and promise of preferential hiring are both bogus and nothing more than an orchestrated political move, designed to incite a group of gullible Delta pilots for whom it has done nothing. A diversionary tactic to cover its own butt, at the expense of Comair pilots.

Obviously it worked for a lot of you have swallowed it hook, line and sinker -- including you. Now you're mad because the Comair MEC didn't take the bait. They were smart enough to see that the breadcrum contained a hook and they didn't bite.

As for the hubbub about how the ASA pilots "gave" your MEC hiring at ASA, that's nothing but another political lie. The fact is the ASA MEC gave you nothing and agreed to nothing. The decision to hire furloughed Delta pilots was made, unilaterally, by ASA management. That management decision was NOT made because of any impetus provided by the ASA MEC.

Additionally, there is NO agreement from Delta managent that it will give preferential hiring to ASA pilots. There is also NO agreement between the Delta and ASA MEC's. All of that propaganda is nothing more than a concerted effort on the part of the Delta MEC to fool Delta pilots and make Comair pilots and their MEC look bad.

If you don't know that, then maybe you and others like you should spend a bit more time paying attention to what your DMEC is really doing, instead of believing everything they tell you.

Your MEC is angry with the CMR MEC because the Comair MEC will not allow your MEC to dictate what we do. That's the long and the short of it. It's nothing new, your MEC has been trying to do that for a decade. It has also been misrepresenting the outcome and content of meetings between us over the same time frame and feeding you line pilots healthy portions of political garbage.

All of that comes about because Comair pilot leaders have consistently represented the best interests of Comair pilots and have refused to sell-out their brothers and sisters at Comair in favor of political benefit from ALPA national and the Delta MEC.

Maybe the members of the CMR MEC can't tell you that themselves, but I'm not on the MEC and I know what you all have been doing and I can tell you. What's more, if I have to, I can prove it. It's all dirty ALPA politics. Comair is NOT the only group of regional pilots against whom this political BS is constantly played. We just happen to be a group that doesn't take it by bowing and scraping. That's why the politicians don't like us. It's because our MEC doesn't kiss their a$$es.

This Comair pilot is happy that his MEC defends the interests of Comair pilots in preference to everything else, including the benefit of the MEC members themselves. I'm happy that they are suckers and don't bite political hooks and don't get reeled in by your MEC. We know we're little and we are not as powerful as the Delta pilot group. You however, need to understand that we are not suckers either. I'm sorry if that upsets you, but I sure hope we don't change any time soon.

I'm sure you'll accuse me of being bitter but I'm not. I just don't intend to let your MEC pull the wool over the eyes of Comair pilots if there is anything I can do to prevent it. You all have a constant habit of threatening and trying to intimidate others whenever you don't get your way. I resent that and I hope that both the Comair MEC and the Comair pilots will not give in to your MEC's threats or efforts to intimidate. I also hope that they will never give in to the same kinds of threats from ALPA National.

Furloughed Delta pilots should not be caught in this political mess. Guess what? They would not be if the Delta MEC had not decided to play politics with their future. Tell your MEC to change its ways and you'll get the support of Comair.

Now that's the truth. What you said is not the truth and does NOT hurt. Yes, your furloughees are more experienced than CFI's from the Comair Academy. We know that and we haven't said otherwise. Our management has an agreement to hire certain CFI's that complete a specific program. It is honoring that agreement. The people that get hired may be "less experienced" than Delta furloughees, but they are good people and they meet the standards. Most do an excellent job. There is no reason whatever why our Company should avoid an agreement with them in order to give you preference. You are not entitled to any preference. They are entitled to haveing their agreement honored.

And you stated something about preferential hiring versus hiring military pilots.

Yes, I did. Your MEC told you that it offered us preferential hiring at Delta. It told us that our "preference" would be secondary to that of military pilots that are currently not employed at any airline. We think that's nonsense.

I have nothing against specific Comair pilots (except Lawson) and do not treat anyone poorly. I talk to them on the jumpseats and ask them all about the CRJ and their new routes etc. I do not try to act like their "Dad" and treat them with respect. I just don't agree with their MEC's policies and think it will hurt them in the end, but I do not treat anyone poorly.

I'm glad that you treat us nicely and with respect. I trust that Comair pilots will also treat ALL airline pilots, including Delta pilots, with courtesy and respect. Usually they do.

I'm sorry that you don't like Captain Lawson. He's a very nice person. Do you know him? I do! I like him just fine and have nothing against him so I guess he's even. I know your Chairman too and if I had to choose between them, Lawson would be a clear winner. Different strokes for different folks and totally irrelevant. By the way, Lawson is not the dictator of the Comair MEC, he is the Chairman ... and a good one. He does not make MEC decisions by himself. Does your Chairman do that?

We can agree to disagree, but this whole mess will not help you or them in the end. If you want to change that, tell it to Lawson. If you don't, then accept the consequences.

We sure can agree to disagree, I have no problem with that. I also think this whold mess will not help you in the end. If you want to change that, tell your MEC to change its ways. If you don't, then accept the consequences. See how easy that was? Six of one, half dozen of the other.

I wish you well and harbor no hard feelings. I just don't buy the Delta MEC propaganda. Sorry.




.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

Well, thank you for the long response. I can see that you and I agree to disagree. I think the real losers here are the Delta furloughees. I really do care about them because I have MANY friends who are out of work right now, and the "Delta Furlough" tag they get while trying to interview does NOT help them. I have to hear about their miserable lives, and it doesn't make me happy. I know that quite a few of them would love the chance to get into an RJ, regardless of the pay or being at the bottom. Whether or not the MEC's are playing a sad game with these people, the sad truth is that a lot of them are not flying. I have nothing against your CFI's at the academy, I am sure they are good pilots and I was a CFI/II/MEI once too. I can understand that there are quotas in hiring, and that will be the same at Delta in the future. In my class I was only one of 6 total civilians, while 24 of the other guys were military. I am sure you believe in diverse hiring, right? IF you guys would have agreed to some sort of preferential hiring, (something in writing) I am sure the ratio would have been better than mine. I didn't complain in my situation---I did better than most of the military guys because I had previous 121 experience----not only dropping bombs and flying in formation. But, that was the way it was, and I was happy to be here. So, to wrap this up, I have been looking out for the furloughees because I think they have been overlooked. I know our MEC chair too---he was a 757/767 Capt in CVG--and he seemed to be a nice guy when I met him awhile back. The key point is that if we let you have unlimited 70 seaters, with possible 90 seaters, our mainline growth potential will shrink---the 737-200's in CVG might as well be parked. That will limit the number of "high paying jobs", the benchmark for your next contract negotiations. With less "high paying jobs", the less of a chance for you to get one. We have to protect those limited jobs, and we have to keep a certain number of big planes. Unlimited 70 seaters and 90 seaters will erode those, and benefit you for a while, while hurting us. I will try to stop this argument and get on with something other than bashing the Comair MEC for what I think was a bad decision. We can agree to disagree, and I will try to stop posting on this subject. (Do I hear cheering??)


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[surplus1]

My apologies to the maker for being so far off thread. However, remarks like those made by General Lee cannot go unanswered no matter where embedded.
*************************


General,

You're welcome and thanks too for your replies. I don't want you to stop posting. I just want your posts on this matter to be based on the reality of what happened and not the fiction and political propaganda generated by the DMEC.

With respect to the fate of the furloughees, it may surprise you but I share many of your feelings. I think they were caught in the middle of something that should never have happened. The furloughees were overlooked and I think the reason was political on the part of the Delta MEC. I also think that is wrong.

Whenever you complain about something you should also be willing to propose a solution. I think I have a solution. It's too late now, but if this had been done at the beginning, you would have very few if any Delta pilots on the street that don't want to be there. Here's how I would have done it.

1. The minute that furloughs were first announced at Delta, the DAL, CMR and ASA MEC's should have gotten together immediately, without any pre-conditions, to solve the problem.

2. The MEC's agree together that ALL future vacancies at all Delta-owned carriers shall be open for bid to ALL furloughed pilots on the 3 seniority lists, in preference to the hiring of ANY pilot from outside of the Delta-owned system, with the exception of the contractual commitments to Comair Academy instructors, which will be honored.

a. No future preferential hiring offers are involved, we are talking ONLY about furloughed pilots from any of the three (3) Delta-owned airlines.
b. There is no "interview" and no pre-qualification requirement. If you are a furloughed pilot, all you have to do is bid for the vacancy and it WILL be awarded, in accordance with your seniority at your own airline. If there are furloughed pilots at more than one of the three airlines at the same time, the vacancy is awarded on the basis of DOH.
c. No pilot has to relinquish his seniority number and will retain his contractual recall rights to his original airline. He can exercise those recall rights when recalled or choose not to do so. His call, per his present PWA.
d. If he refuses the recall, he looses his number at the recalling airline but retains his number at the receiving airline.

Note: A)Your Company (DAL) wanted your agreement to its codeshare with CAL/NWA, thus you had more leverage with management that either ASA or CMR. Your MEC simply decided not to use its leverage on behalf of your furloughed pilots. Don't ask me why for I do not know. You are the one's that did that, not us. B) Our companies (ASA & CMR) would have no reason to object if DAL management agrees and the 3 MECs agree.

3. All three (3) MEC's present this to their respective management's on the same date and at the same time and ask the Company to agree. Make the fact public in a joint press release from the union(s).

4. Since DAL is the only airline (of the 3) currently furloughing, each time either Comair or ASA has a new-hire vacancy, the furloughed Delta pilot has the opportunity to bid for that vacancy. If he wants it, it automatically goes to him, no questions asked.

5. The "new hire pilot" goes to the bottom of the receiving list where he is the successful bidder, and is subject to the terms of that contract for the duration of his tenure there.

6. He is carried as "furloughed" by his original airline and becomes a "new employee" at the receiving airline. This should bypass the potential difficulties re retirement programs and ERISA/IRS.

7. We all (the MECs) get our respective management(s) to sign identical Letters of Agreement establishing this procedure. (I think they would have agreed to do so). End of solution; end of problem.

Had we done this, without all the political grandstanding by your MEC and the consequent need to resist from our MEC, the following would have happened.

I don't know the exact date of your first furlough, so I'm going to assume (for the sake of illustration) that it was December 02, 2001. On that date there were 1277 pilots on the CMR list. As of 12./27/02, there were 1542 pilots on the CMR list. That's a difference of 265 jobs. I don't know the numbers for ASA, but my guess is they are the same or even higher. If my numbers are correct that means that at least 500 new jobs would have been open for bid to furloughed Delta pilots. Roughly half of your total furloughees. By now, it is reasonable to presume that nearly all your furloughed pilots would have had the opportunity to accept or reject an opportunity to fly for ASA or CMR during their furlough.

If in the future Comair or ASA pilots should be furloughed, they would have the identical benefit if DAL is hiring. No more no less. It is simple, it is non-political and chances are very good that it would have been accepted by all the parties involved. There's no rocket science.

Unfortunately, your MEC apparently thought that it's opportunity to create political problems for the Comair MEC was more important than its opportunity to find jobs for furloughed Delta pilots. I suggest you ask them.

Do I think the Comair MEC would have agreed to that? Well, I'm not on the MEC but yes, I do think they would have. Do I think Comair pilots would have accepted that? Yes, I do. On the other hand, there was NO WAY they could possibly have agreed to what your MEC did, without selling out Comair pilots. What Comair pilots will not accept is smoke and mirrors from the DMEC, coupled with threats, intimidation attempts and promises that the DMEC does not have the power to keep.

Where there's a will there's a way, General. Sorry, but I think your MEC was a lot more interested in politics than it was interested in finding jobs for its furloughed members. You missed a golden opportunity, again. It's not the first time and it probably wont be the last. We've grown accustomed to the attitude of your leaders.

The key point is that if we let you have unlimited 70 seaters, with possible 90 seaters, our mainline growth potential will shrink---the 737-200's in CVG might as well be parked. That will limit the number of "high paying jobs", the benchmark for your next contract negotiations. With less "high paying jobs", the less of a chance for you to get one. We have to protect those limited jobs, and we have to keep a certain number of big planes. Unlimited 70 seaters and 90 seaters will erode those, and benefit you for a while, while hurting us.

Whoa! As soon as you bring the above element into the equation you've started a whole new ballgame; an ulterior motive that is unacceptable to us. That has nothing to do with furloughed pilots and is a separate issue. If you are determined to link the two together, then we should have no interest in any proposal that you make. As long as taking our 70-seaters and restricting our 50-seaters is your objective, then we don't need or want large numbers of you in our midst. We have enough trouble without a Trojan Horse. I hope you understand that, it's as blunt as I know how to be.

We already had unlimited 70-seaters before your MEC started its predatory assault. Your constant efforts to take the 70-seater away from us and to restrict our 50-seater flying, is the cause of our disputes. We are not going to agree to that under any circumstance nor to anything that you link to it. Your desires in that regard are damaging to the careers of every Comair pilot, present and future. Every time you try to take our airplanes for yourself and restrict and control our flying, we will fight to keep what is ours.

I don't care how much your jobs pay or don't pay. You need to understand that we are not going to give up our jobs because you would like to have them or because you are not satisfied with your own jobs. We know that your job pays more, but OUR JOBS are the only one's we have right now. We aren't going to let you take them for something that we MIGHT get at some unknown future date. That's just not going to happen. If you want free access to jobs at our airline, then we must have equal access to jobs at your airline. That spells merger. If you don't want that, then you can't have our jobs. I hope that's clear. When you stop trying to take from us, we'll get along just fine. Until you do, we will not. It's that simple. We have made no effort whatever to take anything from you.

Congratulations on the announced cancellation of your scheduled March furloughs. I hope you are all recalled as soon as possible.

Here's hoping we can lay this to rest.