Comair gets the 10 -200s

[bvt1151]

FDJ2, the ultimate RJ pessimist.

 

[PropsR4Boats]

I thought they would say CMR was going to fly the Dojets...

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ2, the ultimate RJ pessimist.

Really? In what way? My questions and comments on additional CMR RJs come directly from Fred's statement and your Concessions4Jets deal is a fact not an opinion. Perhaps I'm more of an RJ realist. I expect CMR management to use its tried and proven tactic with the CMR pilots again.

 

[chperplt]

I expect CMR management to use its tried and proven tactic with the CMR pilots again.

I'm sure they will... Just as I'm sure GG will come after you guys again.

It amazes me how the majority of Delta pilots (not pointing fingers)don't realize that we're in this together. You may not like that fact that we fly routes you think you should have. You may not like RJs or the #s of RJs that Delta flies.

The fact is that if Delta fails we all fail. You guys are no more important to the survivability of this company that we at CMR or the folks at ASA are. You're just a big piece of the puzzle that does the majority of the work. Without us, you'd be in a world of hurt (more than you are now), and without you, we'd be nothing.

You call what we did Concessions4Jets, but what we did was no different than what you did. We all did what we could to help Delta. GG asked you for 1 billion dollars. FB asked us for a pay freeze. In return for your 1 billion, you got some items DALPA wanted.. In return for our pay freeze, we got some things that our union wanted. Call it what you will, we both did the same thing for the same reasons....to help keep Delta flying.

 

[FDJ2]

You call what we did Concessions4Jets, but what we did was no different than what you did. We all did what we could to help Delta.

No, it is not the same thing, your concessions were not at all driven by a desire to help Delta. The Delta pilots agreed to concessions because DAL was on the brink of corporate failure and everyone knew it. OTOH, CMR is "profitable" with the "lowest costs in DCI" if you listened to most CMR pilots this last year. The CMR pilots agreed to concessions for no other reason then to secure growth aircraft and everone knows that.

 

[chperplt]

FDJ2

I'm sure we are profitable as an entity, and I'm also sure we do have the lowest overall costs in the DCI system... That doesn't mean much when your parent loses 1B each quarter. Everything that is done is for the company at this point.

But I guess as long as you get your digs in, you'll be happy.

 

[Slim]

FDJ2,

I don't think CMR will be back for more concessions...I'm absolutely positive they will be back for more. My guess is they will return to our MEC about the time this pay freeze expires.

As for the CL-705, Professional Pilot magazine has an article about that airframe and substantiates what has been said on this thread. Bombardier is in deep financial trouble, almost on a level equal to DAL's.

Fly safe!

 

[standaman]

It is the same

But our concessions do help Delta. Comair is owned by Delta and if we give back money from our pay checks Delta keeps it. To me that is the same thing. The only difference is our agreement came with some more airplanes.

 

[smellthejeta]

Why does the manufacturer need a different designator for a different seat configuration? I understand the tricks that Canadair and Mesaba/Pinnacle played to get around some scope limitations, but I'm not sure those same rules apply here. 64/6 and 70/0 still adds up to 70. Any guesses?

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ2

I'm sure we are profitable as an entity, and I'm also sure we do have the lowest overall costs in the DCI system... That doesn't mean much when your parent loses 1B each quarter. Everything that is done is for the company at this point.

So the CMR pilots were motivated by a desire to help Moter Delta? Yeah right.

Just try to keep the discussion honest chperplt.

 

[FDJ2]

But our concessions do help Delta. Comair is owned by Delta and if we give back money from our pay checks Delta keeps it. To me that is the same thing. The only difference is our agreement came with some more airplanes.

I agree that your concession helps the bottom line, but your concession was not motivated by a desire to help DAL, but rather a desire to lock in some growth aircraft. Saving a few bucks for DAL is a collateral benefit.

 

[chperplt]

How do you have a clue what the majority of pilots at Comair were thinking?

The overwhelming majority of pro LOA posts on our ALPA board centered on the losses that Delta continues to incur and the subsequent effect on Comair. Seeing as a majority of pilots approved the LOA, I would have to say that the majority of pilots at Comair felt as they had to help Delta.

Believe what you will... We're not enemies in this fight.

 

[DDpaysoff]

You people seriously need to get a fkin life.

 

[MetroSheriff]

But our concessions do help Delta. Comair is owned by Delta and if we give back money from our pay checks Delta keeps it. To me that is the same thing. The only difference is our agreement came with some more airplanes.

But that is not why you voted for them. You voted for them to get more airplanes. That is what you tell yourself so you don't feel like a buttered muffin.

But you are.

Fred sure musta chuckled at y'all while he was wiping your poo off his dong.

 

[bvt1151]

Here come all the "holier-than-thou's". I can't say your presence's weren't expected. Everytime there's something that a pilot group does to protect itself the one's who are left out always complain and try to spin the subject. We've heard it already. What they tell you is that Comair took concessions...tsk tsk. But what they don't tell you is that they've been working in a contract well under Comair for years now...they just don't call it concessions.

Call it what you will, Comair is still top of the industry. That means you need to quit doing so much whining and do more to make yourself top of the industry.

 

[sleeve]

FDJ2,


I'd be willing to bet that the majority of Delta pilots who voted for concessions were not "thinking of saving mother D" they were thinking about what would happen if Delta were to go into bankruptcy, what would happen to THEIR contract and THEIR retirement. Please don't make this sound like you guys are the saviors of Delta and Comair is just greedy. Cause we're all greedy.

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ2,


I'd be willing to bet that the majority of Delta pilots who voted for concessions were not "thinking of saving mother D" they were thinking about what would happen if Delta were to go into bankruptcy, what would happen to THEIR contract and THEIR retirement. Please don't make this sound like you guys are the saviors of Delta and Comair is just greedy. Cause we're all greedy.

The Delta pilots didn't want to kill the golden goose, the Cmr pilots just wanted more jets.

 

[FDJ2]

But that is not why you voted for them. You voted for them to get more airplanes. That is what you tell yourself so you don't feel like a buttered muffin.

But you are.

Fred sure musta chuckled at y'all while he was wiping your poo off his dong.

BINGO!

 

[FDJ2]

Believe what you will... We're not enemies in this fight.

I didn't say you were, but at the end of the day it was all about getting those new jets. It was a classic quid pro quo. We give you concessions, you give us jets.

 

[brvopilot]

for what is helps in this disscussion, I set up a exit poll survey when we (Comair) were taking the votes on the recent TA. For those who voted "yes" the overwhelming answer was:

"to help the company, seemed like the right thing to do."

I do believe that those who voted yes did so because it seemed like the best way to help the company overall, both Comair AND Delta. I flew with a lot of Senior CA's who gained NOTHING from this TA, but they said they were going to vote for it because it seemed only fitting considering the 32% + cut our brothers took at Delta mainline (almost direct quote). We really do want to see Delta (and Comair) do well. Even for those I flew with who didn't vote yes said after the TA was passed that they at least hope this benefits the company has a whole (which is Delta).

 

[bvt1151]

for what is helps in this disscussion, I set up a exit poll survey when we (Comair) were taking the votes on the recent TA. For those who voted "yes" the overwhelming answer was:

"to help the company, seemed like the right thing to do."

I do believe that those who voted yes did so because it seemed like the best way to help the company overall, both Comair AND Delta. I flew with a lot of Senior CA's who gained NOTHING from this TA, but they said they were going to vote for it because it seemed only fitting considering the 32% + cut our brothers took at Delta mainline (almost direct quote). We really do want to see Delta (and Comair) do well. Even for those I flew with who didn't vote yes said after the TA was passed that they at least hope this benefits the company has a whole (which is Delta).

Well said...but...

You can show all the proof you want. For folks like FDJ2, its in one eye, out the other.

 

[chperplt]

It was a classic quid pro quo. We give you concessions, you give us jets.

Let me ask you this.. What else, other than additional jets, could we have asked for in return for giving the company a pay freeze? Would you have respected us more if we just gave them a pay freeze without asking for something in return?

I'm sure these jets were coming to us anyway. At least we were able to get the company to put it on paper and sign it. If we had to give them something, at least we should be able to get something in return or have the pay freeze voided, right?

 

[N2264J]

...but at the end of the day it was all about getting those new jets. It was a classic quid pro quo. We give you concessions, you give us jets.

It was about job security. If you're not familiar with the RJDC lawsuit, our union will not let us negotiate scope with the entity that controls the flying. This was as close as Comair pilots can currently get to bargaining scope.

The LOA represents job security for every Comair pilot on the property today and a majority thought that was worth buying. If we don't get all the planes, the pay freeze ends. Although there were risks on both sides of the issue, I didn't think it was such a bad deal for a back door "no furlough" clause.

Our new president is talking openly now about airframes certified to 90 seats (CL-65-705). Some may interpret this as an indicator that when the Delta pilots go back to the negotiating table this summer, scope relief for the company will be on the agenda again as well as the "restructuring" of the defined benefit plan.

The Comair/ASA pilots first choice was unity in 2000. Both Delta and Comair were in Section 6 negotiations at the time and if ALPA got behind it, we could have pulled it off. There was and is no doubt that Delta/Comair/ASA meet all the criterion of a single transportation system with the right to bargain collectively under federal labor law.

So if you don't like the way it's working out now, hold your status reps to account but trying to drive a wedge by demeaning Comair pilots "Concessions4Jets deal" really misses the mark which, by the way, we've come to expect from Delta pilots.

 

[Anaconda]

Seeing as a majority of pilots approved the LOA, I would have to say that the majority of pilots at Comair felt as they had to help Delta.

Believe what you will... We're not enemies in this fight.

i would have to say that the majority of pilots that voted yes were either pu$$ie$ or in it for themselves. other than the same handful of kool-aid drinkers on the alpa web board, i have yet to meet anyone that either a) admits to voting yes or b) voted yes for the reasons you specify.

 

[C425Driver]

i would have to say that the majority of pilots that voted yes were either pu$$ie$ or in it for themselves. other than the same handful of kool-aid drinkers on the alpa web board, i have yet to meet anyone that either a) admits to voting yes or b) voted yes for the reasons you specify.

I have met a lot of people who admit that they voted yes, and most of them were worried about job protection - not because they wanted shiny new airplanes as some uninformed people on here would like everyone to believe. The company hinted at the fact that about one third of our pilot group has no furlough protection. Then the rumors and scare tactics were running rampant. Once Fast Freddy established the fear factor, it wasn't too hard to get people to vote yes.

I personally voted no because the LOA was presented to us under the false premise that we would still be paid at or near the top of the industry wages for what we do. That was an outright lie - we'll be one of the lowest paid airlines out there when the freeze is over. I don't necessarily need to be the highest paid pilot out there, but if I am going to be lied to about the merits of the LOA then you can bet my vote was going to be a resounding no.


C425Driver