Comair Fleet "Changes"

[spinproof]

The last protected pilot is something like 1120 or there abouts on the seniority list. The last seniority list the most junior pilot was 1914. That leaves about 800 pilots that are unprotected. If you factor in attrition over the last 4 years, Comair had hired 900ish pilots since 2001. That is 42% of the pilots that are not-protected. I'm sure it is higher now with the recent attrition.

Those are facts



It gives us a slim chance. I would rather take that chance then sit by and do nothing.



Doesn't matter as I will be making NOTHING when i'm furloughed!



So a no vote is the answer? Sounds like we may have a little more hope if it is passed, as a opposed to very little hope if it doesn't.

You sir are in serious denial and I have nothing but pity for your analysis. Your comment that" Doesn't matter I will be making NOTHING when I'm furloughed? " says it all...Yes you will and before that you will be making less than you are today because you voted yes!

So half the pilot group is protected by the NFC great! Maybe they can convience the rest of you of the folly of your yes vote. I'm sure they are not counting on you as you've not only drank the "Cool aid" you are still swilling it down!

 

[spinproof]

And who do you work for?

I do not work for Comair but I have a vested interest. I will say no more than that. If you think that by not working there I can't have an interest you are wrong.

If you have anything else to argue bring it on! It doesn't change what the prudent and correct thing to do with this issue thats before the Comair pilots.

 

[spinproof]

I can tell you from experience that an NFC is not worth the paper it's written on. The one quoted as the Comair NFC was exactly what we had at DAL and the company went through it like a hot knife through butter.

I was an FO flying the 737 in Orlando when we signed contract 2000. I told the Captain I was flying with that day that I was going to have a party because I now had furlough protection, and because I had already flown over 400 hours was off probation. Here is his direct quote:

"I wouldn't get too excited about that no furlough clause"

Me: Why not?

"You see if the company gets itself into too big of a mess and they come to us for concessions we will vote to keep the payrates and sacrifice some of the junior guys to protect the profession"

I thought that this guy was the biggest P^%$k that I'd ever met. Now six years later and having seen what guys are willing to do to protect their individual standard of living. Nothing shocks me any more. If you don't think it will happen at Comair then you are very naive.

I have not read the NFC of which you refer. I do not believe it to be relavent to Comairs NFC. Why...simple.. if what you say is true then why don't they just drop it from the latest offer. The Comair MEC said as much to them and the DAL negotiators said they would not! WHY! WHY?....

No one has said that it prevents furloughs but they will pay a very big price for trying to get around this and that is all that the Comair pilots can do at this point. Make them pay the price. If they sign they have given the only leverage they have away!

 

[Rogue5]

Air Transport

Delta Pilots Accept Pay Cuts, Comair's Review Them
Aviation Week & Space Technology
01/02/2006, page 62

James Ott
Cincinnati

Delta pilots accept temporary agreement. Comair crews face a similar fate.

Printed headline: Cuts That Bind

Painful cuts are preferable if they avert even the chance that a labor contract can be canceled in bankruptcy. Pilots at Delta Air Lines demonstrated that point last week in a close balloting on a temporary 15% pay cut. Their Chapter 11 colleagues at Delta Connection carrier Comair face the same dilemma this month: Take a cut or else.

Eligible voters in the Delta cockpit group accepted an interim agreement by a 3,001-2,165 vote. John Culp, a Boeing 767 captain, says the favorable balloting indicates pilots are willing to give management more time to produce a definitive business plan. Delta and the Air Line Pilots Assn., which represents the 6,500 pilots, have agreed to try to reach a comprehensive labor contract by Mar. 22. If they fail, a motion by management to void the contract under Section 1113 of the bankruptcy code will be heard by a neutral third-party panel.

Delta had been seeking a deeper cut before negotiators settled on the temporary agreement, averting a courtroom showdown and strike by the pilots' group (AW&ST Dec. 19/26, 2005, p. 42). ALPA Chairman Lee Moak, saying he's hopeful a contract will be agreed upon, added, "We will not work willingly without a contract."

The airline is nearing the end of its first, $5-billion cost-reduction plan and has initiated a second, $3-billion cost-paring plan for 2007.

COMAIR'S FINAL CONTRACT PROPOSAL to pilots, calling for a 9-21% pay cut, will be put to a vote soon. ALPA, though not endorsing the proposal, will present contract details during a road show. Negotiations with management deadlocked last month, resulting in the final management proposal and a decision by the union's Master Executive Council to forward the proposal to a rank-and-file balloting.

If accepted by a majority of the 1,914 Comair pilots, the pilots' group would lose much of what it won in a 2001 contract after an 89-day strike, the longest in the U.S. in two decades. The largest pay cut is proposed for first officers, 13-21%. Management is seeking to place first officers in one class no matter what type of aircraft they fly. Captains are looking at a pay cut of 9-15%.

One of the more significant changes would be elimination of the company program to match a pilot's contribution to their pensions. Under that program, says Brian Moynihan, the union's communications chairman, the company matched contributions dollar for dollar up to 5% of the pilot's annual income.

 

[wmuflyguy]

You sir are in serious denial and I have nothing but pity for your analysis. Your comment that" Doesn't matter I will be making NOTHING when I'm furloughed? " says it all...Yes you will and before that you will be making less than you are today because you voted yes!

So half the pilot group is protected by the NFC great! Maybe they can convience the rest of you of the folly of your yes vote. I'm sure they are not counting on you as you've not only drank the "Cool aid" you are still swilling it down!

1. I don't need your pity
2. Whose in Denial? someone gave you proof that a NFC didn't work in the past and you jsut dismissed it.

 

[bvt1151]

AMEN and AMEN!! Full pay to the last day!:angryfire

Famous last words.

 

[jetflyer]

Thank God I just found a new job.

I don't envy your decision.

VERY SCARY indeed. I can't fault anyone for a YES OR NO VOTE.

This one is definitely going to be close and there is no right choice. Either vote has serious disadvantages.

Do what is right for your situation and NO ONE, not even SPINPROOF,who is also looking out for his PERSONAL situation can blame you.

Good luck to you guys, your spouses, and your children. Either way you're all taking a financial hit. I hope no one suffers too much and not too many lose their jobs, livelihoods, and dreams.

Whatever happens don't give up.

I'm glad I don't have to make the decision.

Jet

 

[PCL_128]

Famous last words.

At least he'll go down with some dignity intact.

 

[imacdog]

At least he'll go down with some dignity intact.

Though, of course, not as much as someone who, say, bought their job at Gulfstream.

 

[spinproof]

1. I don't need your pity
2. Whose in Denial? someone gave you proof that a NFC didn't work in the past and you jsut dismissed it.

You have offered no proof whatso ever! What proof!DALPA NFC was broken by PILOTS not the company!

Take another hit junior you're on your way out the door ! Reality bites! Yes I still pity you and all the rest that believe this will get any better!

 

[spinproof]

Thank God I just found a new job.



Do what is right for your situation and NO ONE, not even SPINPROOF,who is also looking out for his PERSONAL situation can blame you.


Jet

Any pilot that is not on NFC list at Comair would do well to be searching for a new position ! Where ever! No matter which way the vote goes they will also! No reasonable person can look at the "white paper" report and draw any other conclusion!

I wish You all the best and may God bless your efforts!

 

[DAL737FO]

You have offered no proof whatso ever! What proof!DALPA NFC was broken by PILOTS not the company!

Take another hit junior you're on your way out the door ! Reality bites! Yes I still pity you and all the rest that believe this will get any better!

Actually to get the story correct the NFC was walked through using force majuer (FM) after 911, then we got an arbitrator to finally say FM was over and a recall schedule was put into place, then the recall was drawn out by the pilot group who voted on LOA 46 and now it's being thrown out by the BK judge.

Based on your last statement you do get the jist of my post though. If you think the Comair pilots are any different and won't sacrifice their young to keep some QOL then you are in serious denial. I'm on a continual job search and not just in aviation. I would suggest anyone in the industry to be doing the same.

 

[tubelo]

I typically do not get involved with these discussions. For some reason I feel the need to throw my $.02 in here. My opinion is Delta has no intentions on keeping Comair. It already came out in court their intent to sell us, but we were too expensive. They are trying to make us smaller and thus cheaper to sell to whomever. They are going to do this any number of ways. They are already taking aircraft away. They are already decreasing the number of pilots with furlough. They are trying to get us to take a paycut to make us even cheaper. And, despite the fact that the NFC will probably not protect the group for very long, I think it is very interesting that they want to get rid of it. Why? Because even if they can "slice through it like butter" as someone mentioned, it will cost them money to do so. If we just let them take it away by voting out the NFC, it costs them nothing. Why do they want that gone? Probably because they are planning, or at least want the option to furlough into those protected numbers cheaply. I sincerely believe that this offer is merely a move to make it cheaper to get rid us off their books.

I fortunatly or unfortunatly cannot vote for this as I am recalled to the military and thus on a leave of absence from ALPA. The fact that the union has not treated this as a TA speaks volumes to me. They do not approve of this offer and are not backing it. I did vote yes for the LOA, and yes I admit it was a mistake in hindsight. I think a "yes" vote in this case just makes it easier/cheaper for Delta to rid their hands of us and protects/guarantees no one. If I could vote, I would vote NO.

Its tough, but I fully do not expect to have a job to come back to once my recall is over, and am planning accordingly, whether this passes or not. Good Luck!

 

[dvmthwsvan]

Fred said yesterday in the "town hall meeting" that Delta's intentions and his were to sell us after we reduce our cost. He also stated that we, all in all, will probably loose about 30 planes no matter which way the vote goes. Just more later if it does not pass.

 

[9rj9]

Freddy was sent to shine up for the sale

Delta has wanted to sell Comair and sent Fred to Comair to fix it up. They are preparing to sell you, but what Mesa or Republic want is the gates and concourse C. They do not want a bunch 50 seat planes or pilots, they can get those from the 100's furloughed at much cheaper wages. Thats why the no furlough clause was not in the new offer. Anyone ever wonder why Fred still lives in Atlanta, because after the sale he will go back to the Delta headquarters. He never intended to stay here, he was sent to shine you up for the sale. Comair will be a much smaller airline and will have to give even more to get any additional flying when they are owned by the new buyer.

 

[dvmthwsvan]

No, No, No. Youve got it all wrong. He addressed that too. He said that the reason the no furlough clause was being taken out was because it makes us more appealing to a buyer. He used a couple of other airlines post 9-11 that took theirs out too. He then said he has no plan or furloughing any more pilots without that clause. Then he said that the reason he hasnt moved here is because his wife moved 9 times in the military and also his daughter made the 7th grade B-ball team and he promised her she could play this year before they move. He also said that he has no contract with delta that if he gets fired from Comair it is "Game Over" for him. Now he wouldnt lie to us would he.

 

[Berry McCockner]

I typically do not get involved with these discussions. For some reason I feel the need to throw my $.02 in here. My opinion is Delta has no intentions on keeping Comair. It already came out in court their intent to sell us, but we were too expensive. They are trying to make us smaller and thus cheaper to sell to whomever. They are going to do this any number of ways. They are already taking aircraft away. They are already decreasing the number of pilots with furlough. They are trying to get us to take a paycut to make us even cheaper. And, despite the fact that the NFC will probably not protect the group for very long, I think it is very interesting that they want to get rid of it. Why? Because even if they can "slice through it like butter" as someone mentioned, it will cost them money to do so. If we just let them take it away by voting out the NFC, it costs them nothing. Why do they want that gone? Probably because they are planning, or at least want the option to furlough into those protected numbers cheaply. I sincerely believe that this offer is merely a move to make it cheaper to get rid us off their books.

I fortunatly or unfortunatly cannot vote for this as I am recalled to the military and thus on a leave of absence from ALPA. The fact that the union has not treated this as a TA speaks volumes to me. They do not approve of this offer and are not backing it. I did vote yes for the LOA, and yes I admit it was a mistake in hindsight. I think a "yes" vote in this case just makes it easier/cheaper for Delta to rid their hands of us and protects/guarantees no one. If I could vote, I would vote NO.

Its tough, but I fully do not expect to have a job to come back to once my recall is over, and am planning accordingly, whether this passes or not. Good Luck!

This thread could not be more right on. Comair, your fate is a done deal. The big D will widdle you away so they can sell you. They have already started taking away airplanes. And some of them were 70 seaters (isn't that where all the future growth would be.) If you vote yes, THEY WILL NOT GIVE THE PLANES BACK. You will just be helping out there cause. Don't help them. You put up a good and long fight for your contract. don't piss it away. Full pay to the last day......

 

[bvt1151]

At least he'll go down with some dignity intact.

Kinda like Custer?

 

[RP170]

I do not work for Comair but I have a vested interest. I will say no more than that. If you think that by not working there I can't have an interest you are wrong.

If you have anything else to argue bring it on! It doesn't change what the prudent and correct thing to do with this issue thats before the Comair pilots.

You don't happen to be the same spinproof that is an FO for MESA in IAD are you?

 

[wmuflyguy]

If it's the same spinproof that's been posting on here all along you work at MESA and are based out of IAD. Of course you have a vested interest. Comair shrinking means more growth for you. You 2 faced a$$hole.

That is some funny sh#$

 

[Pez D. Spencer]

This thread could not be more right on. Comair, your fate is a done deal. The big D will widdle you away so they can sell you. They have already started taking away airplanes. And some of them were 70 seaters (isn't that where all the future growth would be.) If you vote yes, THEY WILL NOT GIVE THE PLANES BACK. You will just be helping out there cause. Don't help them. You put up a good and long fight for your contract. don't piss it away. Full pay to the last day......

Actually, Delta is not taking planes, they are giving them back to creditors. Subtle but tangible difference, although the result is the same. The planes are gone, and they are not coming back. That is for sure.

It is likely that Comair will not be entirely gone, but vastly different than it is today. Either way it goes, I know I'm screwed. Unlike some of you folk here posting about this, I do have an immediate stake in what we do with this proposal. I think all of us have an eventual stake. If we pass this thing, everyone in the portfolio is looking at a whole new bidding war, and it ain't going higher. And for those outside the portfolio, you will witness what will happen to your own airline in the quite near future. If we take this, then will our guys on the street ever find a good paying job in this industry? Doubtful for the near term anyway.

It may irk me to no end to help out the competition's flight crews by voting this down, thus giving away the rest of our flying to them... and, I may not like this deal, but I love my company and my fellow pilots. I want nothing more than for us to come out on top every time. I just don't see any way for us to succeed with what we've been asked to vote on -- so, I cannot vote for it.

 

[jetflyer]

If it's the same spinproof that's been posting on here all along you work at MESA and are based out of IAD. Of course you have a vested interest. Comair shrinking means more growth for you. You 2 faced a$$hole

Too bad we Comair pilots can't just keep this a private thread. Influences from Mesa Pilots telling everyone at Comair to "TAKE A STAND and VOTE NO" so they can get our flying is pretty ridiculous.

Good luck guys,
Jet

 

[spinproof]

Too bad we Comair pilots can't just keep this a private thread. Influences from Mesa Pilots telling everyone at Comair to "TAKE A STAND and VOTE NO" so they can get our flying is pretty ridiculous.

Good luck guys,
Jet

I resent the implication! No I DO NOT work for Mesa! OK little boys you're just like sad Democrats...when you don't like the message you start a name war!!!

Grow up !!

"Flyguy" I hope you think it's funny. I see very little to laugh at.

If I did work for Mesa I'd be praying you clowns would vote yes so that I would be assured of 1800 pilots beneath me!

By the way I believe you are refering to "Spinplate" as the mesa guy! Not Spinproof! I have been here since 2002 and have never worked for Mesa or any affiliate.

 

[RP170]

I resent the implication! No I DO NOT work for Mesa! OK little boys you're just like sad Democrats...when you don't like the message you start a name war!!!

Grow up !!

"Flyguy" I hope you think it's funny. I see very little to laugh at.

If I did work for Mesa I'd be praying you clowns would vote yes so that I would be assured of 1800 pilots beneath me!

My bad. Must be another "spinproof" then.

 

[spinproof]

My bad. Must be another "spinproof" then.

Apology accepted, Thank you.

 

[RP170]

Apology accepted, Thank you.

Actually I just figured it out. His name is "spinplate." Sorry for the confusion.

 

[scarlet]

Spinproof--you should love the repeblican party--they hate unions, they hate labor, they will not let you stand for something--so we all fall to the bottom, they hate miniorties, alot of hate but they are good Chrisitian people, nevermind the scandals of stealing your money.. I hope I do not have to vote for anyone on that ticket again.

 

[spinproof]

Spinproof--you should love the repeblican party--they hate unions, they hate labor, they will not let you stand for something--so we all fall to the bottom, they hate miniorties, alot of hate but they are good Chrisitian people, nevermind the scandals of stealing your money.. I hope I do not have to vote for anyone on that ticket again.

Yes I'm a repeblican! (Republican) Proud of it! Never heard anyone in the party say they hated minorities as a matter of fact I believe George has more around him than Brother Bill had!

The mess that is happening in our industry is happening because we as pilots have allowed it to be!!!!! We have slowly but certainly approved of every move. Yes I'm a Christian and proud of this! I have not stolen anything from you or anyone else.

Thank you for making my point. It seems all you Dems can do is accuse someone of something! Dont think the Dems are labors buddie. I've never seen them do anything productive toward labor...just lip service while asking for your vote.

You'll give it to them so they know you're a good naive solder! Place the blame where it belongs. On all of us!

 

[jetfo]

I can tell you from experience that an NFC is not worth the paper it's written on. The one quoted as the Comair NFC was exactly what we had at DAL and the company went through it like a hot knife through butter.

I was an FO flying the 737 in Orlando when we signed contract 2000. I told the Captain I was flying with that day that I was going to have a party because I now had furlough protection, and because I had already flown over 400 hours was off probation. Here is his direct quote:

"I wouldn't get too excited about that no furlough clause"

Me: Why not?

"You see if the company gets itself into too big of a mess and they come to us for concessions we will vote to keep the payrates and sacrifice some of the junior guys to protect the profession"

I thought that this guy was the biggest P^%$k that I'd ever met. Now six years later and having seen what guys are willing to do to protect their individual standard of living. Nothing shocks me any more. If you don't think it will happen at Comair then you are very naive.

You're dead on! The senior guys at CMR will sell out the junior pilots to save their hide, they hope!

Unfortunately, in the end it will probably not be enough to even save their jobs. DAL will do what everyone else does, outsource to the lowest bidder.

As DAL has said privately, CMR is not part of DALs' long term plans.

Regardless of any agreement worked out with the pilots, which isn't worth the paper its written on like the last one, CMR will likely be sold off.

This may be a sale of the airline as an ongoing concern if the labor contract can be adjusted to make it marketable with the likes of mesa, etc., or there will be a sale of the flying and perhaps aircraft assets as seen in the sale of MidAtlantic aircraft and flying to Republic. The senior guys at CMR will be lucky if they are given an opportunity for jobs at the aquiring carrier.

I hope my preciction is wrong for the sake of the CMR pilots who remain there, but I doubt it. In any case best of luck to you guys.