Comair Fleet "Changes"

[fugghedabowdit]

Big meeting tomorrow at 1500 to announce new changes (read:downsizing) to the fleet. More bad news I'm sure.

 

[JI Gone OH]

Big meeting tomorrow at 1500 to announce new changes (read:downsizing) to the fleet. More bad news I'm sure.

Hmmm, I think I need to start looking for another job...

 

[WateryGrave]

Hmmm, I think I need to start looking for another job...

I hope you aren't just starting to look now?????

I got a great lead down at the grocery store if you need an app!

 

[9rj9]

pressure

just a little more pressure for the new payrate to pass. Funny how they announce this right before the roadshow. They know how to play the game.

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

just a little more pressure for the new payrate to pass. Funny how they announce this right before the roadshow. They know how to play the game.

I sure hope it is "pressure" and not a firm statement of planes leaving. I fear since they are making such a big deal about it that it is a done deal of many planes leaving. I'm guessing 30-50.

 

[JI Gone OH]

I hope you aren't just starting to look now?????

I got a great lead down at the grocery store if you need an app!

What kind of equipment would I be flying ;-)

 

[Wacopilot]

I sure hope it is "pressure" and not a firm statement of planes leaving. I fear since they are making such a big deal about it that it is a done deal of many planes leaving. I'm guessing 30-50.

Nothing is firm in the airlines. This could be a firm announcement that could change once the new pay is/isn't passed. Don't give into your fear.

Waco

 

[B777]

I am not sure what's the big surprise. An announcement long ago that Delta will be taking planes away and OH intentions is to replace the 50 seaters with 70 seaters because that's where the growth will be.

 

[WateryGrave]

What kind of equipment would I be flying ;-)

Funny you should ask, they just recieved delivery of the all new CARTMASTER 5000. They are the launch customer and you too could find yourself in a sweet orange vest stacking these babies up shortly,

Bad news though, it's pay for training.....

 

[spinproof]

I am not sure what's the big surprise. An announcement long ago that Delta will be taking planes away and OH intentions is to replace the 50 seaters with 70 seaters because that's where the growth will be.

Correct!

The thing is Comair pilots who feel they must vote yes are not putting a proper value on the "NFC" in their contract. This is HUGE!!!!



Before this can be eliminated the whole contract would have to be eliminated! Not likely from my vantage point given the judges penchat for having the sides come to an agreement. So far all the "company" has given Comair pilots is a take it or else!

Stand your ground! Things are bad, but they will get worse if you give up and sign this POS!

There will be more negotiating!!!!!!

Do NOT Believe FB has an answer on anything all the shots are being called in ATL !!!!!

 

[comrcap]

NFC is meaningless. Ask the DALPA guys. They will sell Comair AND THEN guarantee flying as part of the deal. That's why they don't guarantee it to us. They don't have to bargain with us. We showed up to a gun fight with a knife.

 

[spinproof]

NFC is meaningless. Ask the DALPA guys. They will sell Comair AND THEN guarantee flying as part of the deal. That's why they don't guarantee it to us. They don't have to bargain with us. We showed up to a gun fight with a knife.

Wrong !! Wrong !! Wrong!!

Then if that is so why do you think it was a non negotiable item!!!

Well!

You better get your contract down from the dusty place you threw it and read that paragraph again. Let me help you out "newbe" Section 1 Paragraph "E" page 1-3.

You have nothing to fall back on but this contract! Nothing is guaranteed to you except what is in it! You better get your head out of you butt pal before you make a huge mistake! Until it is taken away you will survive if you give up and sign this you are DONE!

 

[BenderGonzales]

It's been a few years but if I remember correctly from the major I was furloughed from, all of the job-security sections of the contract came with an attached "force majeur" clause.

It was basically management's "get out of jail free" card. Any section that included this clause could be ignored in the event that there were:

Typically, a force majeure clause provides that non-performance of an obligation of a party will be excused to the extent and for so long as performance is prevented by an event of force majeure.

Force majeure provisions often include trigger events such as:

1. War
2. Terrorism
3. Natural Disaster
4. Work stoppage at a supplier
5. Work stoppage at the company
6. Act of God
7. Bankruptcy

They can include others etc. Essentially anything that significantly impacts sales, but is beyond the control of management.

At the major I was working at there were three main job security provisions.
1. No Furlough Clause
2. Minimum Captain positions
3. Minimum system block hours

All three were almost immediately eliminated after 09/11.
The fourth, scope, was virtually eliminated over the next 3 years as the airline replaced the vast majority of its short-range, narrowbody fleet with outsourced RJs.

I wouldn't count on that no-furlough clause to protect you -- especially in bankruptcy.

 

[spinproof]

It's been a few years but if I remember correctly from the major I was furloughed from, all of the job-security sections of the contract came with an attached "force majeur" clause.

It was basically management's "get out of jail free" card. Any section that included this clause could be ignored in the event that there were:

Typically, a force majeure clause provides that non-performance of an obligation of a party will be excused to the extent and for so long as performance is prevented by an event of force majeure.

Force majeure provisions often include trigger events such as:

1. War
2. Terrorism
3. Natural Disaster
4. Work stoppage at a supplier
5. Work stoppage at the company
6. Act of God
7. Bankruptcy

They can include others etc. Essentially anything that significantly impacts sales, but is beyond the control of management.

At the major I was working at there were three main job security provisions.
1. No Furlough Clause
2. Minimum Captain positions
3. Minimum system block hours

All three were almost immediately eliminated after 09/11.
The fourth, scope, was virtually eliminated over the next 3 years as the airline replaced the vast majority of its short-range, narrowbody fleet with outsourced RJs.

I wouldn't count on that no-furlough clause to protect you -- especially in bankruptcy.

What you say may be true as you know it, I would submit the following :
Comair NFC....
" For the duration of this agreement, notwithstanding the provissions of section 22, the company will not furlough any pilot whose name is on the seniority list on the effective date of this Agreement except in circumstances over which the company has no control. The term " circumstances over which the company has no control" includes, but is not limited to,a natural disaster,labor dispute,grounding of a substancial number of the company's aircraft by a governmental agency, reduction in flying operations because of a decrease in available fuel supply or other critical material due to either governmental action or commercial suppliers being unable to provide sufficient fuel or other critical materials for the companys operations, revocation of the operating certificate,war emergency, owners delay in delivery of aircraft scheduled for delivery,manufacturers delay in delivery if new aircraft scheduled for delivery.The "circumstances over which the company has no control" will not include the price of fuel or other supplies,the price of aircraft,the state of the economy,the financial state of the company or the profitability or unprofitability of the companies operations."

The above is why DAL wants this gone!!!! I can not look at this any other way than to say to you that if you give this up you have surrendered without returning fire!!!!

 

[B777]

Pardon my ignorance, but I don't really understand all that jargon that you have listed above about the union and the ALPA CBA and so forth. I do understand the following, in layman's term:

There is no doubt that the shots are being called in ATL. But I do believe that Fred Buttrell is GENIULy trying to do the best he can, to get the best term for the OH team. And by OH team I don't mean pilots only. Delta can easily force any terms they want on OH and if they want, they can even give a majority of their flying away to other regionals just like they did with Freedom Air in MCO.

You ask pilots to stand their ground and fight, but what are you going to fight??? It's true, you are showing up to a gun fight with a knife. Where are you going to go? Can you tell me of another Regional out there right now that you will be better off than OH? If so, name it for me and tell me why. I think compared to other regionals, OH is still a good place to work. Far beter than Mesa, TSA, and blowjet just to name a few.

The reality is that you have companies like Mesa, and Freedom, and blowjet that OH has to compete against. Do you have a suggestoin on how OH can compete against these and still give the pilots their demands?

 

[spinproof]

Pardon my ignorance, but I don't really understand all that jargon that you have listed above about the union and the ALPA CBA and so forth. I do understand the following, in layman's term:

There is no doubt that the shots are being called in ATL. But I do believe that Fred Buttrell is GENIULy trying to do the best he can, to get the best term for the OH team. And by OH team I don't mean pilots only. Delta can easily force any terms they want on OH and if they want, they can even give a majority of their flying away to other regionals just like they did with Freedom Air in MCO.

You ask pilots to stand their ground and fight, but what are you going to fight??? It's true, you are showing up to a gun fight with a knife. Where are you going to go? Can you tell me of another Regional out there right now that you will be better off than OH? If so, name it for me and tell me why. I think compared to other regionals, OH is still a good place to work. Far beter than Mesa, TSA, and blowjet just to name a few.

The reality is that you have companies like Mesa, and Freedom, and blowjet that OH has to compete against. Do you have a suggestoin on how OH can compete against these and still give the pilots their demands?

Pardon my ignorance but to whom are you quoting and or directing the above?

 

[Plug]

I hear that it's "take the pay cuts or we dissmantle CMR or take the paycuts and we will most likely dissmantle CMR." This is what I got out of the latest CMR MEC briefing. Talk about a $hit sandwich. Good luck guys/gals!

 

[wmuflyguy]

And the NFC only protects the top half of the senioriry list(those hired before the strike). If it is turned down the other half will still have no prectection and essentially garunteed to be unemployed.

 

[spinproof]

And the NFC only protects the top half of the senioriry list(those hired before the strike). If it is turned down the other half will still have no prectection and essentially garunteed to be unemployed.

I believe it be all pilots on the seniority list as of contract signing. That should be more than the "top of the seniority list". I dont believe Comair has hired 900 pilots since 2001!

My question would be, whether you are on the list or not, what in this gives you a guarantee if you vote yes?

Let me help you out there "flyguy"....NOTHING!

If you are not on the list you are subject to be furloughed(and probably will) no matter how you vote! The question is do you want to be furloughed at your present rate or at a lesser rate?

Here's hoping the light will eventually go on for you and others who think a yes vote is the answer.

 

[B777]

Pardon my ignorance but to whom are you quoting and or directing the above?

The first paragraph was directed to you as I do not understand what you are talking about . . . but feel free to explain it to me.

The rest of the message was directed to all the Comair pilots that go around bashing OH and FB. I think it is still a good company to work for. Perhaps not in "previous OH" terms, but compared to the rest of the regional industry. FB is a great leader who has his hands tied behind his back by DL, but yet he is still trying to fight and get the best he can get for OH.

 

[BenderGonzales]

Disregard. (someone brought up my point already)

 

[spinproof]

Good point. The no-furlough clause in your contract was only good as of the date of signing. That means everyone who was hired since date of signing wouldn't be protected by it even if it was enforced!

Good point? Hardly! I say again what in voting yes does otherwise? Nothing.

Comair pilots , as I have read the MEC " white paper" report, will have NO guararentees if this POS is voted in. Hence the MEC's stance of not endorsing.

Why anyone sees the merit in this is beyond my pay grade. You guys are not reading between the lines. If you are a Comair pilot you have to believe your days as such are numbered! Why else would DAL not negotiate any part of this agreement plus want you to give up your NFC? Why? It is money neutral in the great scheme of things if they have plans for you at the new rate! BUT If they dont have plans for you it is in the way!!!!

How many times does this have to be said before it makes sense?

 

[spinproof]

The first paragraph was directed to you as I do not understand what you are talking about . . . but feel free to explain it to me.

The rest of the message was directed to all the Comair pilots that go around bashing OH and FB. I think it is still a good company to work for. Perhaps not in "previous OH" terms, but compared to the rest of the regional industry. FB is a great leader who has his hands tied behind his back by DL, but yet he is still trying to fight and get the best he can get for OH.

Obviously you are not a Comair pilot and I'm not sure you are in fact a pilot at all. So to try to explain to you anything I've written would be fruitless and an exercise in futillity. Break's over back to science class!

 

[Pez D. Spencer]

My question would be, whether you are on the list or not, what in this gives you a guarantee if you vote yes?

Guaruntees... death and taxes (and airline mgmt coming back for more)

If you are not on the list you are subject to be furloughed(and probably will) no matter how you vote! The question is do you want to be furloughed at your present rate or at a lesser rate?

Current rate for the next few months and for my vacation payout, please.

Here's hoping the light will eventually go on for you and others who think a yes vote is the answer.

First of all, can I getta AMEN!!

If anyone on the bottom of this list is sitting around hoping that this thing passes so you will "still have a job," GET REAL. (I wasn't even here for the strike and I can relate to what that means). Question their motivation for getting rid of the NFC. Question your motivation to buy what they're selling. If you are on the bottom of this list, this proposal benefits you ZERO. It is unfortunately a lose/lose proposition.

[sarcasm]
Vote YES so you can save someone senior's job. [/sarcasm]

In reality, and of good conscience, vote what you feel is right. For me, that's a NO, but I bet ya'll guessed that already.

There ya go Freedom/Chitaqua/Republic guys and gals, some job security for you (no slight intended). Post-furlough, I'll accept donations, cash only no checks please.

 

[spinproof]

AMEN and AMEN!! Full pay to the last day!:angryfire

 

[RP170]

AMEN and AMEN!! Full pay to the last day!:angryfire

And who do you work for?

 

[wmuflyguy]

I believe it be all pilots on the seniority list as of contract signing. That should be more than the "top of the seniority list". I dont believe Comair has hired 900 pilots since 2001!

The last protected pilot is something like 1120 or there abouts on the seniority list. The last seniority list the most junior pilot was 1914. That leaves about 800 pilots that are unprotected. If you factor in attrition over the last 4 years, Comair had hired 900ish pilots since 2001. That is 42% of the pilots that are not-protected. I'm sure it is higher now with the recent attrition.

Those are facts

My question would be, whether you are on the list or not, what in this gives you a guarantee if you vote yes?

It gives us a slim chance. I would rather take that chance then sit by and do nothing.

If you are not on the list you are subject to be furloughed(and probably will) no matter how you vote! The question is do you want to be furloughed at your present rate or at a lesser rate?

Doesn't matter as I will be making NOTHING when i'm furloughed!

Here's hoping the light will eventually go on for you and others who think a yes vote is the answer

So a no vote is the answer? Sounds like we may have a little more hope if it is passed, as a opposed to very little hope if it doesn't.

 

[DAL737FO]

I can tell you from experience that an NFC is not worth the paper it's written on. The one quoted as the Comair NFC was exactly what we had at DAL and the company went through it like a hot knife through butter.

I was an FO flying the 737 in Orlando when we signed contract 2000. I told the Captain I was flying with that day that I was going to have a party because I now had furlough protection, and because I had already flown over 400 hours was off probation. Here is his direct quote:

"I wouldn't get too excited about that no furlough clause"

Me: Why not?

"You see if the company gets itself into too big of a mess and they come to us for concessions we will vote to keep the payrates and sacrifice some of the junior guys to protect the profession"

I thought that this guy was the biggest P^%$k that I'd ever met. Now six years later and having seen what guys are willing to do to protect their individual standard of living. Nothing shocks me any more. If you don't think it will happen at Comair then you are very naive.

 

[Pez D. Spencer]

It gives us a slim chance. I would rather take that chance then sit by and do nothing.

You're hopeless. Wish in one hand and...

If you are in the bottom third of the list, then you should be looking for another job, or getting ready for a long sit in the unemployment line.

Just what does a yes vote get for us? Anything? One thing... come on, tell me what we get.

 

[WateryGrave]

Your hopeless. Wish in one hand and...

If you are in the bottom third of the list, then you should be looking for another job, or getting ready for a long sit in the unemployment line.

Just what does a yes vote get for us? Anything? One thing... come on, tell me what we get.

Nothing but a chance my friend.....
Vote no, I guarantee you this company will not see another airplane for years, thats assuming it survives. Vote yes, maybe the company will still die, but a small chance exists that with its costs close enough or lower to the rest of DCI that future growth might come Comairs direction. Getting the furloughes back off the street and maybe giving the ultra senior guys a place of employment untill they turn 60.

Just my .02

No voters blast away