Comair Concessions?

[skiddriver]

Jarhead,

How about your pilots paying for the debt incurred by the $1.2 billion worth of RJs being bought for YOU (not us) this year alone? A lot of our total debt is due to your growth also---don't forget that. We suggested that they stop paying for capital expenditures this year---like the new BOS terminal (used by both of us---$1 billion), the new JFK terminal (again, used by both of us probably--another $1 billion), and your RJs. We aren't getting any of those RJs purchased this year---none. Would you like to help pay for your expansion? I didn't think so.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Gen.

I usually just read your comments and breeze by. Some make sense, some are just polemic to feed your Comair hatred.

But this is just stupid....

How much are we willing to give up in pay for the RJ's Delta has bought?

Delta bought them because they make Delta money. They provide income (as operated by us) that they can't get from your pilot group. So your question is, how much are we willing to give up in pay so we can continue to make a profit when the mainline Delta pilots don't?

I think the answer will be, not much. Unless Delta gives in some other areas. You can figure out what those are. Bigger planes, more growth, etc.

Do you still think that's a good idea?

A couple of your guys broke the code earlier on. Lower costs at DCI = less need for Delta mainline flying. Inverting what Carrot Top would say, "Bad for you, bad for me."

Enjoy trying to stick it in our eye for some perceived gripe you have. This is serious and if you really want to see large jets with a really small "Comair" next to the boarding door, just keep it up. I think we have some folks that would fly a large jet for Delta minus 10% or so.

You don't have to be our friend. But we all hang together, or we all hang seperately.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Jarhead,
How about your pilots paying for the debt incurred by the $1.2 billion worth of RJs being bought for YOU (not us) this year alone? A lot of our total debt is due to your growth also---don't forget that. this year---like the new BOS terminal (used by both of us---$1 billion), the new JFK terminal (again, used by both of us probably--another $1 billion), and your RJs. We aren't getting any of those RJs purchased this year---none. Would you like to help pay for your expansion? I didn't think so.

Bye Bye--General Lee

It is hard for even me to beleive you are that clueless. Do you actually think Delta buys the airplanes ang "gives" them to us to use?? Good grief. Your not that dumb, are you?
And do you really think Delta lets us use the gates they own free? It is mind boggeling (spelling?) some of the stuff you come up with on this board just to make your case.


Please answer me. Does Delta supply the gates and airplanes to us free? Or do you think Comair pays for these things?

 

[General Lee]

Skiddriver,

Check out what he has to say:


"Enjoy trying to stick it in our eye for some perceived gripe you have. This is serious and if you really want to see large jets with a really small "Comair" next to the boarding door, just keep it up. I think we have some folks that would fly a large jet for Delta minus 10% or so."


Sounds like the next Freedom Air or Mesa.

Also, you guys will get nothing without Dalpa's approval. Your gripes about ASA/Comair saving Delta's can are over----this Summer proved that mainline jets can also help the bottom line and we are bringing back planes to prove it---the problem again I say is the debt, that you contribute to. I am not saying that you guys should contribute an equal amount with us---no way---but to try to hide out and pretend that your growth doesn't affect our debt load is ridiculous. But, I can understand your frustration about wanting bigger Delta-like planes, since an interview eventually will be tough to get and even harder probably to pass.
I bet we could do the same with your 70 seaters. Since your average 70 seat Captain is a 12 or 13 year guy probably, I bet the pay rate is high. Well, our furloughed pilots are 2-3 year guys that could use your contract and pay scale and cost 1/2 of what your guys cost per hour--using your pay scale. I bet the company would go for that, and guess what? We don't have to go to you and ask whether or not we can set up another DCI carrier---call it Dance---and receive more 70 seaters that Delta really wants anyways. Would we do that? Probably not, but I am trying to sway the people in the know. Maybe some will listen and we can get some of my furloughed friends back in the cockpit---and at the same time save some money for those debt payments.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Afellowaviator,

Delta (not Dalpa) owns you 100%. Let it go, bud. They own the gates, and your planes, and you. Delta pays for it----not Comair. They own your terminal, and your sims, and your academy. Time to let go. They decide what to do with you, and our contract , which they signed, gives them direction. Sorry bud.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[jarhead]

Oh General, tsk tsk tsk. Delta Airlines also owns all the airplanes that mainline pilots fly as well. Somehow, you try to give the impression, that Dalpa runs the show, and that Dalpa is the imediate "supervisor" over the Comair entity. That's B.S. I could make the same argument that Delta Inc, could sh!tcan all "your" flying, and "give" it all to CMR. All flying entities that DAL owns, are run for, and by DAL. And yes, I know their are contracts with the individual entities, but that is another topic. DAL will do what it can do, to stay in the game, irrespective of what your "desires" or politics may be.

 

[skiddriver]

Gen.

Okay sport, we'll work it from our end, you from yours. Who's got more to lose?

And OBTW... the "we'll never hire you here" polemic only works for folks who plan on sending in a resume.

 

[RubberDuck]

Hey George, LOOK OUT FOR THAT TREE!!!

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Gen,
As always, your reply made no sense what so ever. Delta bought a company, COMAIR. If COMAIR needs an airplane, COMAIR buys it. It is COMAIRS debt, not DELTAS.

Ok, I am convinced. You are an idiot. You complained about DELTA spending all this money on RJ's and terminal and gates for the RJ'S. And I bring up the FACT that COMAIR buys their own airplanes and pays for their own gates, and you come back with meaningless garbage talk. Your actually not a very bright person, are you?

SO, I quess you won't answer my original question, because if you did honestly, it would make you look even more like an idiot.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Jarhead,

You really didn't answer my question: would you help pay the debt incurred by the $1.3 billion worth of RJs bought this year alone? (For your use only)Bye Bye--General Lee

Yet another example. This is such an idiotic question. Your not serious, are you? Do you really think DELTA is buying these airplanes and GIVING them to Comair? Come on, stop making a fool out of yourself with these stupid questions.

 

[Jeepman]

Wow, another Comair vs. Delta thread

Here is my outside-looking-in-opinion


First of all the General is right. DAL owns Comair. Period. However, I think this is advantageous to CMR/ASA pilots. How much did DAL pay for ASA/CMR??? Comair went on strike and cost Delta 1.3 billion was it? I remember hearing that Comair is toast! But they are still here. I say you Comair guys have some ground because Delta bought you. You are an investment and they can't afford to flush you down the toilet (i.e. give all the flying away). Whereas (supposedly) Leo & Co went to SkyWest and said 20% less or we let you go now! Nothing invested so they can do that & Skywest said o.k.

What I don't get is the rumors that there are BRAND NEW 737-800's & 767-400's sitting in the desert. I would think that they would park an older aircraft to fly a newer one. I also think the days of the 50 are coming to an end. They are French-Canadian P.O.S.'s and have too many problems. I am upgrading back to the BRO!

 

[General Lee]

Afellowaviator,

I guess I must prove to you, AGAIN, that you are wrong and that you are the IDIOT. Again. Here you go:


From DAL second quarter report:

"Capital expenditures during the six months ended
June 30, 2003 totaled approximately $700 million and
included the acquisition of 16 CRJ-200 and 12
CRJ-700 aircraft, 23 of which were acquired through
seller financing arrangements. Capital expenditures
for the six months ending December 31, 2003 are
expected to be approximately $800 million, including
approximately $450 million for regional jet aircraft to
be acquired primarily through seller financing
arrangements."


This is for Delta, NOT COMAIR. Delta is paying for your RJ's---NOT COMAIR. The Debt goes to DELTA---NOT COMAIR. You are not a seperate listed company on the stock market? Are you? Nope.
Even though those RJ's were arranged with the manufacturers, the debt is added on to Delta's debt load.

So, am I still an idiot? NOPE.

Here is another one of your famous quotes:

"Yet another example. This is such an idiotic question. Your not serious, are you? Do you really think DELTA is buying these airplanes and GIVING them to Comair? Come on, stop making a fool out of yourself with these stupid questions"

I proved you wrong again. Good night.

Bye bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Hello? Afellowaviator? I'm waiting........apology time...re-read your post and then read mine, again.


Skiddriver,

You bet I have more to lose, and that is why Dalpa fights for me. That is also why Dalpa would have fought for you too--but that's right, you don't want to come over to Mother D. That's ok, it would have been a tough interview. I really do hope you enjoy your job. Good luck.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DDpaysoff]

Can you feel the love? Leo is wacking it right now reading these posts. You have to give it to him on this one, he has won. I thought AMR mgmt. was the best at pitting one group against another, I think there is a new mgmt champion. Until we put our arrogant, cocky, egotistic, confrontational, groups together; we will flat out lose. Unfortunate but true!

 

[~~~^~~~]

(1) Where is ALPA's ECONOMIC ANALYSIS TEAM to study this for six months to a year? Why is the Comair MEC even thinking about negotiations without the representation and support ALPA provided other members on the Delta property?

(2) Why haven't the results of ALPA's economic analysis team been shared with the Comair and ASA MECs?


(3) Why doesn't Comair's MEC take the position the Delta MEC did in their "negotiations?" Here is the DAL MEC Negotiating Memory Items list:

(1) Tell us everything you want
(2) Agree to everything we demand ahead of time
(3) Then we will actually meet and talk

Of course Delta could not do that and contract talks broke down in the negotiating to negotiate phase. DALPA holds 10 meetings to decide whether to hold a meeting. A great tactic for stalling.

(2a) In the mean time, blame everyone else for not negotiating, being uncooperative, being unethical job stealing whores - the Delta pilots eat that stuff up. (example : the current Comair jobs for furloughees deal)

 

[MONKEY]

I would have to agree with a fellow aviator on this General your thinking seems way out of wack.

Did Delta buy the aircraft, sure they did. On internal books, who is that debt attributed to? Comair. You know as well as I do that Delta does internal audits to better control costs as well as increase profits. If these RJs were not making money, and if the debt were such a problem for Delta, do you not think that they would be giving them to SKYW, CHQ, and ACA (or their replacement)?

RJ CASMs are out of line, but on some routes it makes more sense. I don't think you are to dumb to understand that the RJ does have it's place, and does indeed make money. To think that just because you Delta mainline made a profit during the busy summer months that you are in great shape you are mistaken. Will you be profitable during the winter months? I hope so, but I doubt it. Also, don't forget that part of the reason that "your" flights were so full, is the fact that these RJs brought in passengers to fill "your" airplanes.

From time to time you have a good point, but most of the time, your thinking is way off base due to your strong bias. Stop and THINK for a bit.

Also as for your argument that your pilots are on year 1-3 versus more senior at ASA and Comair, once again you show your lack of being able to THINK. If the more senior RJ guy isn't flying a 70 seater they will still be getting the more senior rates on the 50 seater. That also means that instead of moving the Senior guy to the 70 seater and recruiting a junior guy to fly the 50 seater at year one on the payscale, you pay the senior guy his aplicable rate on the 50 seater and then you pay a mainline guy the same amount that you would have payed the senior guy to fly the seventy seater. That is all fine and good, but still costs the company more money.

just THINK about it.

now I am not making an argument for who deserves the flying. I feel that DAL should be more indebted to their pilots on furlough than the guy who hasn't even been hired at Comair or ASA. If that were the case you were trying to make, I might agree with you. If you were right I would also agree you, but you are wrong.

 

[flaps30]

why ?

Why would the company want to piss the pilot group off again. Now the APUs will run, two engine taxi every turn, who cares if were a little late, ect. Just another airline that will spend a dollar to save a dime.
I think JetBlue will beat us all, those guys are all on the same team.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Gen, like I said. Do you think Delta "gives" us the airplanes? Your approach is Delta is going in debt. to buy these airplanes. I will give you that. But they get the money right back from Comair when we "buy or lease" them. Their accounting is shady at best, but to insinuate that Comair does not pay for their own gates, planes, fuel, labor, ect.ect. is hardly being honest.

Comair still pays Delta a fee when a Delta employee handles our flights, just as before. The only diff is in the end, all profits are Deltas now. And Delta pays Comair when our people handle a Delta flight, like in SDF.

So as you can see. I am right, and you are wrong. Simple, hey!

 

[General Lee]

Afellowaviator,

Ok, I will accept your apology. I found the statement I needed in the quarterly report that proved you wrong, but I forgive you---as always. You and I are both passionate about our airline group, and we want it to succeed. I want you to know that I personally don't think "I own you" etc, I am just another employee in this huge total company. I was just trying to show you that Comair isn't it's own entity anymore, but controlled in reality by Leo and Fred. (Not Dalpa) Leo and Fred can do anything they want---their signatures are the ones that count--not Randy's. Randy takes orders from Fred Butrell, who takes orders from Fred and Leo. That is the pecking order. (Notice I am not in that order--even though Leo calls me all of the time for advice----I keep telling him to raise the salaries at DCI)

Monkey,

You are correct about RJ CASM being out of whack in some places--except flying to hubs. 50 seat RJs provide quick transport to the hubs to off load passengers for our mainline flights. When Jetblue receives all of their 100 seat EMB-190's---the point to point service on the RJs that bypass the hubs--like LGA--SAV or CHS--will have a great disadvantage compared to 100 seaters. Jetblue will charge a fare of $59, for example, and the 100 seater will have a better chance to make money because they can spread out the costs out over 100 seats versus 50. That is why the Comair MEC etc is getting nervous---they see the 50 seat RJ as a hub feeder only---and when Airtran floods the market with 100 737-700s, and Jetblue does the same with EMB-190s---Delta will have to respond with something bigger on your current point to point routes. It will happen, and the 50 seater will be too inefficient for those routes----and Comair has a lot of them. (LGA--HSV, BNA, JAX, RDU, YUL, SAV, GSO, BHM,---and DCA--JAX, PBI, TPA, MCO, FLL, etc.......) Those EMB-190s will be all over the place, and the 50 seaters won't cut it. And, all you will have is 57 70 seaters to compete. I can understand them being nervous---and Dalpa will have to do something ---which may mean compromising. But, we will still have 1060 people out as of Dec 1st---and that isn't going away.

Your example with the 70 seater Capt vs the 50 seater Capt confused me, and not because I wasn't THINKING. Most pilots go for the cash, and some go for the lifestyle if they are fairly senior. If your 70 seater pays more than the 50 seater, and you were to get 50 more, let's say, then more senior people would go to it because some of the schedules would get better---maybe not the bottom 20 lines used for naps. Overall, the number of good lines would get better. If it pays more and the lifestyle issues are increased on more lines---the 13 or 14 year guys would flock to it. I said that our furloughs, which average 2-4 years at the company, would take your payscale and fly additional 70 seaters for 1/2 the cost, and 100% less crap taken in from your pilots who have "CRM" problems with us, according to Lawson. It would cost the company 1/2, and our guys could actually get back into a cockpit again--which is really what everybody wants, right?
Now, I don't think that will happen, unfortunately. We will probably focus more on 100 seaters, after we all take some sort of paycuts. Now that is THINKING.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[USAirways1149]

Gen Lee

Let's not intentionally try to scare the kids Gen.

There will ALWAYS be a market for the "feeder" -- whether that feeder be a Jetstream or a Dash 8 or an RJ.

The regional jet was designed to do exactly what you say -- match capacity with demand until such time that demand increases and can once again support an MD80 or 737.

When that occurs the RJ will be redeployed where:

#1 Demand can NOT support the mainline product OR

#2 To develop a new market for Delta Air Lines OR

#3 To recapture high-yield markets from affiliate codeshares (i/e American Eagle feeding DAL out west???)

If Delta reclaims HSV-LGA with a 100 seat product FANTASTIC -- that frees up an RJ to develop a new market!

FANTASTIC that frees up an RJ to take over Cincinnati to Philly if the demand isn't there -- which IN TURN frees up a 737 to take over a market in which demand is such that an RJ is not sufficient.

The point is allowing Delta the flexibility to match capacity with demand. Ideally that would have been done with a single Delta seniority list years and years ago --- BUT ALPA and Delta let the cat out of the bag when they let the first RJ fly at a "regional".

You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. Not when you're dealing with another pilot group who is working for a seperate, quasi-independant company, who also happens to be represented by the same national union and who is entitled to the same representation as the pilots at the parent company.

If you've got a plan to build a Toothpaste-re-tuber, i'm all ears.

Cheers!
-Furloughed US Airways Non-Person Creating Unrest Among the Powers That Be.

 

[General Lee]

USAirways1149,

Good post. I agree with a lot of what you have said. I did post, however, that I thought the 50 seat RJ would be used more as a hub feeder (which could be from Philly to CVG, or a new city) than a point to point flyer----which usually start in larger towns (NYC)--and fly to mid-sized cities or resort towns. Those routings will be overrun by Jetblue EMB-190s and Airtran 717s once the 737-700s come along. I didn't say they would park the 50 seaters, but rather the new orders for them will probably shrink and instead be used on larger aircraft that could compete effectively with the new Jetblue and Airtran airplanes. It might just be the wave of the future, and a lot of analysts are saying that the 100 seater will be the future growth, connecting larger cities with the smaller ones---along with the lower fares that will necessitate the 100 seat planes. That is what Comair and ASA fear right now, since their orders are limited to only 57 70 seaters. Their continued growth in the future will rely on larger aircraft to meet the demand and be able to compete with teh LCC's flying 717s and EMB190s. At mainline we have old 737-200s that will be replaced eventually, and the Dalpa people I have talked to (a lot of them by the way) have said they will never give up the 100 seaters--since they will be replacing current mainline 737-200s. As far as more 70 seaters---I think that will be resolved when we get back the 1060 furloughs that are still on the street after Dec 1st.

Bye Bye--General Lee