Comair Concessions: Raise the Bar!

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

Thanks for finally agreeing with me that I have "sound reasoning."
Atleast somebody now sees that.

Treme,

I can see that you are nervous, and you can also see that Delta could not care less about furloughing pilots and affecting their lives. We have 1060 pilots out there that really can't get a good job without dropping their Delta seniority number---something that they are proud of and something that will one day bring them good fortunes again. Can you now see why a lot of our pilots were disturbed that Comair would not drop it's seniority resignation policy? Job security is nice--and help during the bad times can create lasting memories. I wish you luck, and think that this will be resolved eventually in your favor.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

Part 1 of 2

originally posted by Treme Certainly meant no offense Surplus -- and wouldnt even presume to suggest that I have the same understanding of the situation that you do. This is not an RJDC thread! At least I hope that it won't become one.

Treme,

To save space I won't quote any more of your post but I will try to reply to your points in the order that you wrote them. Please be patient, it will take a lot of words.

No offense was taken. If you disagree with my perspective on the issues that is certainly not a reason for me to be offended. I seem to have a different understanding of the situation but that does not mean that I presume my ideas to be better than yours. What I think is that you may not have enough exposure to the process, the information or the industry on which to base your judgement. I hope that by exchanging views we can learn from each other.

I agree that this discussion is not about the RJDC and I'm not trying to make it so. However, that doesn't change what I said about the effect of ALPA's decision to prevent Comair pilots from bargaining directly with their real employer. That decision does impair our ability to bargain successfully and that would be so even if the RJDC did not exist. ALPA's policy decision is based on an agenda that ignores the interests of regional pilots it favor of those of others. That predates the RJDC. Unless ALPA changes that policy, which I do not believe it will do voluntarily, we of Comair and others like us are faced with the reality of having our future determined by external pilot groups. That is wrong, regardless of what you think about the RJDC.

It is true that there are pressures to reduce the cost of Delta's overall operations and the need for concessions by those contributing directly to the losses is very real. Comair is not among them. As you point out, the customer cannot tell the difference between CMR, ASA, CHQ, ACA or SKYW since all fly using the Delta livery and marketing brand name. The customer also cannot tell the difference between CMR and DAL. The recent contracts signed by SKYW, ACA, ARW, CHQ, et al, have indeed created negative pressure on the CMR contract and have adversely affected the bargaining at ASA (not to mention COEX and Mesaba). Likewise, there are far greater pressures on the Delta PWA, created by actions at AA, UAL, NWA, U, and the already low scales at CAL. Additional pressure on the Delta PWA comes from JBlue, AirTran and to a lesser degree SWA. Delta management has responded to the LCC(s) with Song, but Song remains impaired by the cost differential of the Delta PWA. That is not a problem for CMR and ASA pilots to solve and we should not be drawn into it. It is a problem for the Delta pilots to solve, and it is up to them to decide how they want to deal with it. As long as they do not use CMR and ASA pilots as one of their bargaining chips, how they do it is none of our business. However, attempts to make us pay any part of what they caused are out of line. I have no doubt they will object to my saying that but they'll have to live with it; that's how I see it.

Compared to the differential between DAL and AA, UAL, and U, the spread between CMR and other regionals is relatively small. Notice that in the case of the regional carriers I did not mention Mesa. That is because their contract has always been so far below every other regional that it can be ignored, unless of course other regional carriers do not choose to make Mesa the standard they seek to match. I also did not mention carriers like CAL and AWA for the same reason. Why do we need to emulate the aberrations?

The question is whether or not the difference between CMR and other regionals justifies concessions or not. Perhaps it does, but so far the company has presented no evidence to substantiate its inability to compete, and the bottom line of Comair (as released by Delta itself) reflects a greater net profit in the 3rd quarter (in real dollars) than the profit of the new "legend on the block", Jet Blue. On the basis of our "ability to compete" it is my opinion that Delta's request for concessions from Comair's' pilots and Flight Attendants, is at best somewhat premature. At worst it is nothing more than opportunism. I'm all for helping the Company when the Company really needs my help, but I'm not in favor of playing games with our compensation package merely because some Delta manager or the Delta pilot group have "good feelings" about the idea. Let me remind you again that eight years of the proposed CMR concessions do not even provide enough money to fund the special pension benefits that Delta has approved for a handful of its top executives. That alone reveals the unrealistic nature of the request. I have to ask, what makes you support that kind of thinking?

There is another difference between CMR and the other regionals. First, Comair is a subsidiary of Delta, not a subcontractor. Comair doesn't really operate on the basis of "fee for departure", and there is no "margin" no matter how small that goes to Comair and not to Delta. All of CMR's profit belongs to Delta. Delta may well choose to juggle its books (a little reflection on the Arthur Anderson debacle may give you a clue) and orchestrate the profit/loss scenario, but that is artificial. Comparisons of the relative cost/benefit of the CMR operation to the parent company are difficult to nail down. Delta can easily change what Comair does and make it unprofitable and noncompetitive, whenever it chooses to do so. Our true competitive position is no less of a shell game than is the corporate structure itself.

In that atmosphere, the Company (Delta) needs to substantiate the need for concessions at Comair and we do NOT need to rush pell-mell into the concessionary spiral, simply because they ask us to. Our leadership did not really say NO to the concessions. They simply said that they could not meet the company's created deadline. Given what the company has produced as justification for its request, that was the only logical response. The door remains open.

I don't know if your number of 300 CMR pilots not protected by the no-furlough clause is accurate, but for the purpose of this discussion it doesn't really matter. I do understand the point you're trying to make and appreciate your concern. However, I would caution Comair's' more senior pilots not to hang their job security hats on that clause in the contract. If there is a need to furlough beyond that point it will happen. Just ask the Delta pilots who have a similar provision in their contract.

Consider if you can, that those 300 "furloughs" would necessitate a reduction of the current CMR fleet from 150 to 120 (approximately) airframes. That really has nothing to do with the potential loss of potential "growth". Reality is that Delta can transfer ALL of the aircraft used by CMR to some other carrier. If they decide to do that, no-furlough clauses won't be worth the paper they're written on. I doubt anything remotely close to that will happen but imagining that it might and scrambling to make concessions to prevent it, with no guarantees at all, do not make sense to me. A lack of "growth" may delay your upgrade, but is not likely to result in the loss of your job. Well, when you signed on there was no guarantee of "growth" and there was none when I signed on either, so what's new?

Keep in mind that concessions alone will not guarantee growth. They won't even guarantee that we keep what we have. Comair pilots could give Delta double the concessions asked, and the "growth" could still go to CHQ. We can't buy growth with concessions and certainly not from Comair. Growth is a "Lexus" and Comair is a Ford dealership. If you want to buy growth you must bargain with the Lexus dealer. That is Delta, not Comair.

Perhaps YOU do not see any action to protect your interests or any direct negotiations (with fanfare). However, that does NOT mean that discussions may not be taking place, and it does not mean that your interests are being disregarded. Our leaders and our management talk to each other on a regular basis. You and I may not know exactly when or about what, but the truth is that is how successful negotiations are best conducted. Deals and agreements are seldom made in the limelight. Behind the scenes activity is where the rubber meets the road 90% of the time. In the final analysis, our leaders must represent ALL Comair pilots. It would not be right for them to focus only on the interests of the bottom 300 any more than it would be right to focus on what benefits the top 300. No single pilot and no particular segment of our pilot group is more important than the other. I believe that our MEC Officers and one of our captain reps know this very well and are doing the right thing.

I know that our junior pilots are being told repeatedly, by forces external to the Comair pilot group, that the senior pilots are going to sell you out. Unfortunately some of you are believeing that propaganda. You ought to consider that those external forces have a reason for doing that. You can rest assured that they are not harping on that point because the are concerned about what happens to you. Their motivation is their own interest, not yours. They have and agenda, and that agenda is to divide Comair pilots internally so that they can get what they want, not to protect you or any other junior pilots.


Continue to Part II

 

[surplus1]

TO Treme, Part 2 of 2

You said you were new here. I urge you and all junior pilots to do some research into the history of the Comair group. In the past 14 years and 3 major negotiations, senior pilots at Comair have not feathered their own nests on the backs of junior pilots. On the contrary, senior pilots have made certain that our agreements with this company have benefited our junior members as well. For example, in our 1991-94 negotiations, senior pilots gave up much in dollars to ensure that CMR FO's would earn at least 60% of Captains pay. That is a decided contrast with many of the contracts of other regional groups.

It is not our custom to leave any of our group behind and I don't believe for a moment that it will happen now. We will act together and achieve together and no one will be left behind. I see nothing to indicate that Comair's senior pilots are planning to sacrifice their juniors. I say again, that idea is coming from pilots who do not work for Comair. It is no accident. They want to divide us and they have decided that the easiest way is to create dissention and fear among the junior pilots, thus pitting them against the seniors. The solidarity of our group is the one thing that both our management and our enemies don't quite know how to deal with. We must protect that solidarity for it is our strength. Don't give it up so easily by believing the rhetoric from people that are not our friends. Your brothers and sisters are based in CVG, not in Herndon or Atlanta.

I encourage you to not be upset by threatening letters from Don O. or anyone else. Don O. writes what he is told to write and he is not the first executive to produce threatening letters. We got them from the guy before him and from the guy before that guy. As long as you are here, there will be threatening letters from some executive from time to time. It makes them feel good and the purpose is to create FUDD (fear, uncertainty, doubt, and division), in the hope of weakening our solidarity. Expect more of the letters, they are a way of life for corporate management. I don't care if they "feel good" but I will not allow them to intimidate me.

The Company already has a competitive cost structure, Treme. Of the seven largest regional airlines, Comair's cost per available seat mile is the lowest. That doesn't mean we should rest on our laurels. Cost control is important and we must all do our best to maintain our efficiency and operational performance. We must also remember that the customer pays our salaries. If we treat them well enough and give them a little more than they pay for, they will keep coming back. I know ATL operations don't help but if anyone can overcome that debacle, it is Comair. Don't underestimate this little airline or its people. We have a good strong team. Try to become a part of it. You may decide to move on at some point in the future, but while you are here you need to know that you work for "The Best Little Airline in America" and it is part of your job to keep it that way. It is not just the pilots that make this happen, it is all of us. Comair used to be not just a good team but a great team, and there is no reason to give that up just because we were purchased by Delta, even though that purchase has made it more difficult. Excellence in our overall performance is what will get us growth, not concessions in the pilot contract.

The pilot group really isn't squabbling amongst itself. The hiccup within the MEC is the product of but 3 people. One very junior FO who is being used by external forces and who has managed to dupe another FO, plus one ambitious captain who would promote himself at the expense of the pilot group. These people have demonstrated that they are willing to destroy the solidarity of Comair pilots in furtherance of their personal political agendas. In my book, that makes them unworthy of our respect.

Our true leaders may not be perfect but they are not crooked and they do have their heads on straight. They have been tested under fire and have proven themselves more than once. The upstart ring leader of the attempted coup isn't even smart enough to know that he's being used by outside forces that will chew him up and spit him out, just as soon as he has done their dirty deed. He and his cohorts are a Trojan Horse in our midst. We need to stop him and take steps to ensure that he and anyone like him, never has the opportunity to turn against his own again. He is either an absolute fool or a Benedict Arnold. Neither one is in the interest of this pilot group.

I agree that eight million is not a lot of cash. As a matter of fact it is so little cash that it makes it ridiculously obvious that there is in fact no real need for concessions at this time. Our current compensation most certainly does not hamstring this company nor make it less than competitive. That just isn't true. One man's fluff (as you call it) is another man's truffles. The point you really need to focus on is the reality that we cannot purchase job security for anyone, top or bottom, with concessions. The only way that job security can be achieved is through the signature of Delta Air Lines on the bottom of a CMR PWA that includes the clearly defined scope of our operations.

If and when Delta decides to give us what we need then we may be able to give them what they need. Right now they are talking not about needs, but about wants. We cannot give them what they want while they are unwilling to consider what we need. In negotiations, there is a vast difference between wants and needs. If you do not as yet know that you can be certain you will learn it, if you stay in this business.

I disagree with you. This is NOT "Randy's" airline. It is our airline, every last one of us from the lowest "rampie" to the highest executive. Randy is one of us but it is not HIS airline by a long shot. I am interested in Randy's career and would not like to see him lose it, but I expect and demand from him an equal interest in our careers. We do have to work together but everything has its limits. Yes, Randy can "call over" to Delta and ask for whatever he would like. That doesn't mean he will get it. What Randy can't do is sign his name to a document that provides job security for Comair employees. Only Delta can do that. If they do, I'm reasonably sure we will meet them half way.

Perhaps you have not been here long enough to put your X on an official ballot, but I have to let you know that this senior pilot does NOT think that means you have no voice. You are one of us and it doesn't matter when you were hired. You are hired, you are a Comair pilot and if you should lose your job, I will lose a brother. I believe that the majority of Comair's senior pilots think the same way that I do. They may not say it in those words but they are not strangers to me nor is their thought process. I sincerely believe that we will not abandon our young. Sometimes in battle there are casualties in spit eof our best effort and we must all realize that. However, we do not desert our brothers and leave them alone to take a fall for the rest of us.

The strike is over, Treme. It should never have happened. We did not seek it and we did not want it. It was forced upon us. Perhaps we didn't get the dream contract that others thought we should have, but others were not fighting our battles or paying the price of their wishes. Perhaps we did not satisfy the onlookers, but I'll tell you one thing, there's not a man in this business who doesn't know who we are. Victory is measured in more ways than one. We stood up, we were counted, and they all learned what we're made of. That's good enough for me.

Yes, the industry has changed and at this point in time it has changed in our favor. It will change again and when it does, Comair pilots will adapt to the changes in the appropriate way. We are not the dinosaurs of the hour and there is as yet no demonstrable reason why we should make ourselves the fodder of anyone.

Yes, you are emotional. If by now you haven't noticed that I am just as emotional, then I give up. What's more I am not afraid to air my emotions in public. I know who and what I am. I'm proud of my fellow pilots and I'm not the least bit ashamed to tell anyone. I wear my heart on my sleeve and I don't care who knows it. I make no apologies for that. There is a great deal at stake for all of us. It is your career and I understand that fully. You must understand that it is also my career. I am not alone and you are not alone. We are in this together as brothers. I will stand with you when you need me to; you can count on that. All I ask is that you do the same. "E Pluribus Unum."

With equal respect,
Surplus1

 

[Treme]

Suplus,

First of all thank you for your very detailed response. I can tell that you are a leader and I believe that your vision of how the pilot group should treat one another is visionary. I'd be proud to yank the gear for you any day. However...

If what you were writing was the same as what I have been hearing I would have no fear.

But it isnt.

I've read some comments on the ALPA boards such as, "It was a long hard battle to the top of this hill(and we're not done yet)and I'll be darned if I'll let some FNG drive us off the cliff. "

and here's another "There's a reason that in battle we try not to let the new guy plan the assault-Because, "You Don't Know What You Don't Know"

But worst of all, I overheard a conversation in the crew facility in which a pilot actually (loudly) said, "F___ the new guys!" in the middle of a heated discussion about concessions.

How many junior pilots heard that man, and what would the impact be on that junior pilot's allegiance to his "brothers"?

According to membership services there are now 572 pilots at Comair that have been hired since the strike. That is pretty close to 1/3rd of the seniority list. Regardless of whether it isn't worth the paper it's written on these pilots are not protected by the furlough protection clause in the PWA. That sets them apart from their peers in that there isn't even the perception that they have the same protections as their more senior counterparts.

The attitudes above seem to be of the opinion that these "new" pilots dont have a right to be concerned or, probably more accurately, dont have the experience to be concerned.

Comair's recent hiring practices would seem to indicate otherwise. They have hired dozens if not hundreds of pilots who are furloughed from other airlines (including TWA, United, USAir, Eagle, Midway, Mesaba... you name it).

These are hardly industry "newbies" and i'm pretty sure that most of them deserve more than to be coined "FNGs" or told that "they dont know what they dont know". While they may not have been with you on the picket line every single ONE of them appreciates the sacrifice you made to improve the profession. Many sent money above and beyond what was required by ALPA... I know I did. Many have done ALPA work at their previous employers. Some were military service men and women who were overseas defending the country while you were on strike. Some were attempting to salvage an airline called "Midway".

These "FNGs" have gone through bankruptcies, furloughs, downgrades, shutdowns, and -- some of them -- battlefields. Their concerns deserve more than arrogant dismissal.

If the pilots typing or yelling remarks like those above want to divide the pilot group they're well on the way to doing it. Telling a third of the group that they're not "real" Comair pilots because they didnt walk the picket line with you is NOT the way to encourage solidarity. Nor is ignoring or dismissing their concerns.

Just my opinion Captain -- assertive, but with respect.

 

[P38JLightning]

won't worry about it...

Treme,

I've also heard some idiots spout off the things you are refering to. I brought it up to a 6-7 year Captain who told me to basicaly relax, because "it ain't THEIR airline anymore." It belongs to all of us, and while those selfish morons who have been saying things like that do get a vote, it is canceled out by "some FNG" with one year seniority.

So make sure your voice is heard, because the selfish among us darned sure make sure theirs is. Call your status reps weekly, and VOTE!!!!!!!!!!!!

The last round of elections had only about 40 or 50 people (actually less I think) vote in each reresenative category. Empower yourself and your peers to make your voices heard. The last Captain rep election was won by 2 or 3 votes. If you get 5 or 10 new FO's involved, and each one of them gets 2 or3, you would multiply the voice of people in your situation by 100.

So relax, this isn't THEIR company any more, its OUR company. And we're not going to let some FSG drive us off a cliff either.

 

[FLB717]

One of the best post Ive ever seen. Gen and Surpls1 I think you guys are right on. Treme, always remember what ever airline you are at the 5%ers are always present, and while they are loud in crew rooms and website's thier position is always the weak one with no real power, but to anoy. Trust your Reps. I know one like a brother and he and the rest, if they do not releave JC they will put the fear of God in the old Preacher. And you and all ,others win either way.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Agreed.

I understand that the deadline for the RFP is now December 15th.

Hopefully the Comair MEC is carefully reviewing the financial information to determine if there is a need to open the PWA.

I am only a few hundred numbers from the bottom and I too am concerned about the long term viability of Comair.

I hate the thought that I perhaps made yet another career altering mistake.

Is furlough number 5 in my future?

For what it is worth I believe Treme's heart is in the right place. Even exploring the IDEA of job security for the junior pilots is a noble cause.

But then again, I have a soft spot in my heart for junior pilots.

-FurloughedAgain(?)

 

[RichO]

I just have one request, can you keep the posts shorter for us slow readers.....they are becoming way too long.......General, I like the length of your posts....straight to the point........I get lost in the others.................

 

[jetflyer]

They do get entirely way too long. PART 1 and 2!?? Losing us with the ADD.
Jet

 

[badog]

TREME

Dude U R A Management PUKE aren't U ! General is right (4 1nce) and I think he's finally getting it!!! Bull $hitt on the pilot group taking concessions from management that is just treating the symptoms. the REAL $$ is going to the rich A$$ bastards in management let them take the cut. Oh but that's right pilots can't agree on $hit other than they're genetically related to Chuck Yeager or John Holmes. It makes me sick to hear this save your job with a pay cut crap, time to spread the misery around a bit. go to the bean counters and find out how much the top dogs make and tell me what u all think

B.D.