Comair / ASA Merger

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Not much has been posted about what Comair pilots might want in exchange for the Company's request to open your contract. If the Company is really serious about saving money, why don't we begin by insisting on the removal of redundant management teams at ASA and Comair?

Obviously the only purpose these two quasi - separate airlines serve is to provide an end run around scope and provide leverage to whip saw organized labor.

Delta management always talks about negotiating in good faith - well then, lets see some good faith.

 

[46Driver]

Just to play Devil's Advocate, how would you sell this to Delta's stockholder's?

 

[ACE]

FINS ,

The idea of a merger is exactly one thing our MEC is going to propose. It is going to depend on how bad Delta wants concessions from us. From what I got in the informal meetings with our MEC going on in our ops is, they will not talk unless Delta management is at the table. Right now our MEC is talking directly to the pilot group on possible directions to take and there outcomes.

 

[surplus1]

Playing devil's advocate again....

What is to be gained from a merger of ASA/CMR that is of benefit to either pilot group?

It would not stop whipsaw ..... there are still ACA and CHQ and of course mainline.

Neither CMR nor ASA have any control over any flying separately. How would that change in a merger?

There are people on the CMR MEC that seem to think that the Delta pilots own all the flying, including Comair's and ASA's. If those people stay in power, do ASA pilots agree with that?

ASA and CMR have different contracts. Putting them together would produce gains for some and losses for others. What is the advantage of that and for whom? Would either group gain more than the cost of the "concessions"?

Seniorty would be lost for some pilots at both airlines. What would they gain that makes up for that?

Scope problems with Delta would not change due to a merger of ASA/CMR. What is the advantage?

If CMR pilots have to make the "concessions", what benefit would they derive from such a merger?

I'm not against it and I'm not for it. I'd just like to know what you think the benefit would be that is substantially different from what we already have. Maybe I'm blind, but I do not see what either ASA or CMR would gain from a merger of the two at this time. Maybe you all can help me.

 

[General Lee]

And, what about the Delta furloughs that came over to ASA (Thanks again)--and now would be a part of the Comair/ASA mix----what about that silly rule at Comair stating there must be seniority resignation? Those Delta guys would have to resign at the new ASA/Comair mix, and then re-interview promising to resign the number....... That would be very complicated.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

And, what about the Delta furloughs that came over to ASA (Thanks again)--and now would be a part of the Comair/ASA mix----what about that silly rule at Comair stating there must be seniority resignation? Those Delta guys would have to resign at the new ASA/Comair mix, and then re-interview promising to resign the number....... That would be very complicated.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

You seem to presume that in a merger between ASA and CMR, Comair would become the survivor and its policies replace those of ASA. Why don't you think that ASA would be the survivor and replace the CMR policies?

One of my big fears in such a merger is that Comair management might be replaced by ASA's current management, none of whom are really ASA people. We like the Comair people that currently run Comair, better than the non-ASA people that run ASA.

Finally, I think that the issue you mentioned should be of no concern to either ASA or CMR people, in any merger between us. I would not want anyone to lose their job over such a merger and I don't think anyone would, but MY concern would be for ASA and Comair pilots, not Delta pilots biding time and waiting for the day they can leave. Those folks may be great people, but they are not ASA pilots. I would not want any CMR pilot to lose even one number for any of them.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[anon]

A merger between ASA and Comair will never happen IMHO. The last thing DAL mgmt would want to do is increase the strength of any individual pilot group.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

I was just stroking the fire---as I always do. As far as the Delta people "just waiting their time" trying to get back to Delta--what about the ASA people that will eventually get hired by Delta and leave? There would be plenty of people at ASA now that will eventually go over to the "dark side." Some people want to stay at Comair/ASA, and I am fine with that---that is up to them. But, for others at ASA----ASA has always been that place to wait it out before being hired by a Major. A lot of pilots want to continue up the "hill" towards better pay and bigger planes---of course with the chance of a furlough there too. A lot more Comair people may actually being thinking about staying at Comair for their careers---and some of that might have to do with their MEC's actions. (ooops---make that my MEC's actions---or whatever) Even if Comair had allowed Delta furloughs to come over without giving up their earned seniority----upon leaving back to Delta---the pilots junior to them would have enjoyed upward movement and a better lifestyle (better lines, upgrades etc.). Nobody would have lost out on that deal, and Delta would have been the ones footing the bill ultimately. This whole deal was a major blunder in my opinion.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[asacap]

I think a merger between ASA and Comair is a step in the right direction. It would provide us with greater strength, more hubs and routes to choose from, and the ability to deal with Delta management. I'm not so sure management would go along with it but it's a great bargaining chip for the Comair pilots. I guess it's worth a try. Delta must be expected to give something to get something. Remember, Comair and ASA are currently profitable! Good luck.

 

[~~~^~~~]

To answer several questions. I don't think there is anything to be gained, but getting Delta to the table is a big deal. ALPA watching should get very intersting.

It is a demand for emo-political reasons - just like the Delta pilots demand that everyone on the property should share pay cuts. Besides, if we are taking one for the team it just makes sense that Delta might bother to admit that, well, "I guess you are on the team."

As far as shareholders go, they love mergers and getting rid of redundancy. Heck, they even liked a UAL / US Air Merger to the tune of $60 a share. Right now UAL is trading at $1.05. Stock wise, Delta is worth 1.75 Billion. Airtran is worth 1.26 Billion. Delta is not worth the money they have in the bank. Share holders will be pleased to hear anything about getting rid of redundant management.

As far as seniority goes, how many Comair pilots really want to come to Atlanta? How many ATL based pilots want to go to CVG? Probably not many.

We should have been merged, with Delta, when we were acquired. It is not worth a whole lot to us right now, but it is a step in the right direction for Delta and its employees.

 

[sleepy]

Our two MEC's have already worked out the details of an ASA/Comair merger in accordance with ALPA policies and procedures. All that remains is for management to agree to it. It would seem to make sense to merge the two redundent managements from a financial standpoint, but quite a few managers at ASA and Comair would lose their jobs in the process. Naturally, they would resist a merger.

Would a merged ASA/Comair have any scope on DCI flying, probably not. That is going to be costly. DCI will still be able to go to the lowest bidder. A merged ASA and Comair would be more efficient and profitable, and that could help us hold the line against Skywest and Chit.

The DAL pilots would probably object the most to an ASA/Comair merger (and ALPA too), they do not want us to be more powerful, and the really don't want us to talk to DAL management directly. Maybe the ASA and Comair MEC's can drive a wedge between DAL management and the DAL MEC. That would be fun to watch.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

To answer several questions. I don't think there is anything to be gained, but getting Delta to the table is a big deal. ALPA watching should get very intersting.

It is a demand for emo-political reasons - just like the Delta pilots demand that everyone on the property should share pay cuts. Besides, if we are taking one for the team it just makes sense that Delta might bother to admit that, well, "I guess you are on the team."

As far as shareholders go, they love mergers and getting rid of redundancy. Heck, they even liked a UAL / US Air Merger to the tune of $60 a share. Right now UAL is trading at $1.05. Stock wise, Delta is worth 1.75 Billion. Airtran is worth 1.26 Billion. Delta is not worth the money they have in the bank. Share holders will be pleased to hear anything about getting rid of redundant management.

As far as seniority goes, how many Comair pilots really want to come to Atlanta? How many ATL based pilots want to go to CVG? Probably not many.

We should have been merged, with Delta, when we were acquired. It is not worth a whole lot to us right now, but it is a step in the right direction for Delta and its employees.

I agree that the merger should have taken place when the purchase occured. I'll leave it at that and not talk about the blame, as it has been covered in other threads. Pure numbers makes a proposed merger advantageous. Although the whipsawing will continue until the wholly owned DCi carriers neogitate that all DCI flying will be done by pilots on the combined seniority list, shutting down 3500 pilots of the DCi flying will make a VERY dramatic impact. Including shutting down the busiest airport in the world connecting-wise.

As the list has already been agreed to in terms of theory, although some have pointed out that this is not how the merger policy works, I forsee a flock of movement from ASA over to CMR initially. They are currently the more "senior" and new captain bids in CVG would likely go to ASA f/os in order to get the seat and build the PIC time for the inevitable migration to the majors as conditions decide. Of course, the "virtual merger" agreed to may not be what washes out. I refer you to the policy quoted in another thread--much to someone else's chagrin.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

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Scope Comair and ASA :

Hey, when the whole DOH thing was sort of agreed to Comair's folks were much more senior than ASA's. As you know, it depends on where you are at in the contract cycle.

When Comair's management said all the strikers would be Captains in two years, they were not kidding eh? Good for you guys.

I'm not going to CVG for an RJ, or even DFW. It is a bear to commute out of ATL. I don't think there would be much hub raiding by senior ASA FO's. Most of them had the opportunity to upgrade and passed it up for qual of life in 2002. Heck, the CRJ700 went as junior as a 2 1/2 year upgrade in ATL.

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[surplus1]

Surplus1,

I was just stroking the fire---as I always do. As far as the Delta people "just waiting their time" trying to get back to Delta--what about the ASA people that will eventually get hired by Delta and leave?

General,

I know you like to stoke the fire. Guess what, I enjoy pulling your chain just as much. The point is that the "Delta people" aren't ASA people. They are as you say, Delta people.

If Comair were to merge with ASA, we need to worry about ASA people and Comair people, not Delta people. When we merge with Delta, that will be the time to worry about Delta people, who I'm certain will be worrying about us with equal fervor.

As for those ASA people or Comair people that choose to leave in the future, that's A-OK. No problem. Some may go to Delta others will go elsewhere, makes no difference. Meanwhile back at the ranch, no one hired by ASA or Comair should have to wait in the wings for anything while his position is occupied by a feather bedding pilot employed by another airline. Either you is a Comair pilot or an ASA pilot or a Delta pilot. You can't be all three or any two at the same time.

If and when we develop a system that allows us to bid back and forth equally between the three carriers, without any silly interviews, then we can all be one happy family. Until then, no deals. NO, that's not DOH. If you can fill a vacancy on the bottom of my list, then I can fill a vacancy on the bottom of your list (with no slots "reserved" for anyone who is not on one of the lists). That can be a 2-way street or a 3-way street. What it can't be is a 1-way street that favors only you.

The idea that a pilot who is already on the Delta list should have to interview for a vacancy on the bottom of the ASA or CMR list is, plain and simple, BS. The exact same thing applies in reverse for pilots with numbers on the ASA or CMR lists. We don't have to merge to do that. What we have to do is stop thinking that some of us are more entitled than others of us.

You guys believe that your 2-week new hire is more important than our 20-year captain. That's OK, as long as you understand that we believe that our 20-year captain is more important than your 2-week new hire, and our 2-week new hire is the equivalent of your 2-week new hire.

If we go to the bottom when we go to your place, you go to the bottom when you come to our place. You don't displace us and we don't displace you. What could be more simple?

A lot of pilots want to continue up the "hill" towards better pay and bigger planes---of course with the chance of a furlough there too.

My friend every pilot wants bigger, better, more, and every pilot always will. When the bigger and better suddenly becomes smaller and less, every pilot wants something he can fall back on until the sun is shining on his favorite "hill" once more. It has always been that way and it will always be that way. However, some pilots are willing to get "on their knees" for the bigger and better, or even for the fall back, others are not. I like the one's that are not.

We all call our own shots. Sometimes the call is a good one and sometimes not quite as good. What ever the result, you have to take your own lumps. Do not expect the "buddy" for whom you would not lift a finger yesterday to pick you up when you fall tomorrow and remember, the higher you go, the harder the fall.

Take care.

 

[asarjfo]

There is another good reason for Delta to keep ASA/Comair apart. If/when Delta really needs to raise some cash, they have two seperate companies to sell. I am pretty sure that is what CO did with express to prop up the books.

Don't get me wrong, I think it makes good sense to merge the two. I wish there was a way we could find out how much it would save to have only one management team. That would be great to have at the next shareholders meeting after Leo gets done poor mouthing it!!!!

I say when Comair management comes a knocking for some give backs, the MEC should simply point to the savings in a merger. I am sure they would get all the money they are "looking" for....and then some!


Just my $.02

 

[ICU]

You guy's have way to much time on your hands.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

I think a lot of people like to yank my chain, and that is fun. I enjoy this board. As far as a seniority merge or staple, I agree with that---as a staple. I have no problem with ASA/Comair guys bidding for MD-88FO slots, or 737FO slots----as long as there was a staple. Just think, someday if I upgrade to MD-88 Capt in ATL---you could be my FO!! We would have a blast---and you could show me how to really fly an ILS. I'd buy dinner, though. Take it easy.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[thesource]

Here's an idea. Let's put the new 100 seaters at ASA and CMR and staff them with furloughed DELTA pilots then as Delta recalls them the aircraft stay at the WO carriers. Works on both sides and in the end Delta gets a less expensive 100 seater and we see some growth and end with a place where some of us older guys(37) could retire if the sun doesn't shine on us before we're too old !!

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

For any of you ASA pilots on this board I just wanted to let you know that there are several of us at Comair with the opinion that our MEC should tell mgt. that we will listen to their concerns, but ONLY after the ASA pilots have a new ratified working agreement.

 

[Caveman]

AFELLOWAVIATOR is 100% correct. Anything we do regarding concessions would put a stake in the heart of the ASA negotiations. I wouldn't like it one little bit if they did that to us. I for one will not agree to anything that would in any way jeopardize their negotiations.