Comair 90 Seaters

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

It is kinda official. I was told today that we have been given the task of developing a training program for the 90. One of our senior instructors was named the liason to Bombardia to begin preliminary meetings with them.

We have stopped exercising options for the 50 seater as of 2004 and will have 27 70 seaters by the end of 2003. I guess Leo has figured out a way to scare this out of Dalpa. They most likely offered the junior pilots as sacrificial lambs. After all, that has been there MO so far.

This is getting more interesting by the minute Hang on to your seats!

 

[General Lee]

We haven't agreed to anything like that, and that is what really counts. But, I would like to thank you and your staff for creating a 90 seat program for US, thanks. There is absolutely NO WAY we will give in to that, especially if we have people on the street. Leo cannot do anything without our consent. If he tries, he will fail when we grieve it (like the furlough hearing with arbitrator). DCI will only get a TOTAL of 57 70 seaters until 2005 when we start negotiating---and that may take a couple more years. But, we will try to negotiate a good rate that our furloughs will fly---no doubt. Read the contract. Leo will, and we will not sacrifice the juniors again. If anything is negotiated, our guys will fly it. But, go ahead and create a program---we'll help you pay for it when it is done. Thanks!

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[ReportCanoa]

Tain't no way no commuter pilot will fly the 90 seat jet...
Good rumor to start, things were getting boring around here.

General Lee- are you the Scope Official, handing out yellow cards to anyone who so much as utters Scope blasphemy? I think it's pretty silly when pilots think they run a company. Please don't tell me my future is in your hands!!! Let me out!!!

 

[General Lee]

ReportCanoa,

Well, I'm just reporting what most of us think, with CONTRACT in hand, including the furloughs. There is no way we would give up anything with 1060 pilots on the street---that should be obvious to you. And, we have the final say---since our contract isn't up until 2005---which will then be negotiated for 2 years. So, if Leo wants something, he will have to ask for it, and we will probably give it to him---with restrictions that will get our guys back into the air. Does that seem fair to you? You don't want our guys back in the air? You only want your guys to expand and grow with our guys out? You won't even let our guys go to the bottom of your list without giving up their numbers. The ASA guys will have a better chance of flying the 90 seaters (after they are hired onto Delta) than the Comair pilots.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Genral,

I feel your pain. But after all, the Delt mec made it clear a couple years ago that they consider Comair a separate airline from Delta.
That being said, do you get mad at United pilots when they take delivery of air craft larger than 50 seaters? I don't think so. We will do every thing in our power to advance the careers of the Comair pilot. It is only natural for a pilot group to want larger aircraft. It is happening, or we would not be preparing for it.

You seem like a very bitter person. I hope you find some joy in your life one day.

 

[ReportCanoa]

I never wrote that I want people out of work. I was merely wondering why it is a line pilot's job to run my business. I don't answer to line pilots.
Although I will never fly a 90 seat aircraft at this airline, I don't believe it should be subject to another collegues rules. That is all I am saying...

 

[46Driver]

What if: Delta declares bankruptcy (in sequence behind US Air, United, probably American)? I seriously doubt they would spin off Comair and ASA (why spin off the parts that are making money) - instead, wouldn't you want to spend your available cash on airplanes. Instead of burning cash that would only delay the inevitable, this would hasten bankruptcy, you would have all of the extra airplanes (most likely big RJ's), and the bankruptcy judge would be free to nullify all contracts and reorganize the company. What the hypothesis is asking: If Delta declares bankruptcy, do all of the scope clauses go out of the window?

 

[General Lee]

46driver,

What if the moon explodes? What if J-LO breaks up with Ben Affleck? Can't you see, these things will never happen. (Well, the moon may actually explode one day.....) I know that I can't say that Delta would never go Chap 11, but it really doesn't look like it will---for now anyways. We have the best balance sheet, lots of cash and mortgageable assets, and a smart leadership team. With other airlines possibly tanking soon, Delta looks like it could easily pick up market share and move forward. A couple months ago in USAToday---the analysts said Delta was their favorite, and we can ride this bad time out----unless the moon explodes.... Why would we sell ASA and Comair? We could sell them for big cash and still have them operate for us. Continental still owns 53% of Expressjet (Jetlink), and may have to sell the rest since they are running out of cash---they just took a $200 Million "spare parts" loan, and don't own anything else but the Expressjet stock. Delta, on the other hand, owns all of ASA and Comair. The 53% of Expressjet is now worth $340Million. We could raise big bucks selling ASA/Comair off---and still use them as feed---like Continental still uses Expressjet. Or we could sell them for big cash and then bring in Mesa. (especially if Comair and ASA get too expensive for management......)

Checkessential,

I know you want to fly bigger equipment, which is natural. But, you know as well as I that if you get bigger equipment at a lower cost to Delta, then they don't need us anymore. That is why we have the scope clause. So, I guess you could retort by saying, "why don't you lower your costs?" We are trying to keep good wages, otherwise Delta would pay us $50 an hour for 777 Capt's if they could. Then Leo would take home a $5 million bonus instead of $3million. The best way you could have moved up to bigger equipment in the Delta family was to give our furloughs bottom senority jobs, which would not have hurt anyone there. You should have opened your arms and smiled---while they would have flown the crappy trips and you continued with your senority. But, that didn't happen. I know you will blame our MEC etc.... The stories seem to vary a bit, but all I know is that Lawson wanted to have unlimited this and that, and we couldn't do anything but give preferential hiring in writing. Then you might bring up that the hiring was not exclusive. I keep saying that I was one of 6 civilians in my class, with 24 military. The ratio would be a heck of a lot better than that I can assure you. (they would have--in writing) But, it isn't going to happen. I can say that the Delta MEC will not give anything but the 57 70 seaters to DCI, and the rest will fly our furloughs until they are back, and then we will see what happens. If UAL tanks, things will move quickly. When the war ends and the economy rebounds, Delta will be in the best shape to grow.

I am not trying to be a "policeman" or whatever, I am just telling you what most Delta pilots believe. We will not give up any more
70 seaters or especially 90 seaters to anyone else.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[wil]

General Lee- With all due respect- My brother bought a 1 way tickect from tpa to lax connecting in MEM for 325.00 ON SWA. That is our real enemy! All this talk of one list et cetera is B.S . if we don't survive!! I refuse to argue the politics/cost efficiency of our aircraft- you will due that for us, we are and will operate at a profit (your subsidariary-ASA). I hope we can find a home for our furoughed brother/sisters' sorry for the spelling I'm drunk! Wil

 

[cl-65link]

I didn't know SWA flew to/through MEM. At least they didn't when I was based there last year! They do however serve BNA. Of course NWA has tried to keep them out(succeeded so far).

 

[DAL737FO]

Nice flame bait. I'll play. As of right now, our contract with many holes, does not allow for anything other than 57- 70 seaters at any of the connection airlines. This is not open to Force Manure. We, Delta pilots, have already learned a valuable lesson about our very liberal scope clause and FM provisions. There will be no 90 seaters at the connection airlines unless of course they are being flown by Delta pilots under the Delta PWA (something like Song).

Here I'll start my own rumor. I heard Comair has stopped hiring and has asked for voluntary leaves. It's funny how that coincides with the announcement from the arbitrator that Delta can no longer furlough mainline pilots. I heard a 4th floor guy came to Dalpa and wants us furloughees to fly the 70 seaters at Comair + 1% rates. Hey they had to do something with those extra pilots that they originally wanted to furlough.

See it's real easy to start a thread of BS. (Which by the way the above paragraph is total BS) Basically what I'm trying to say is that if it's not in writing and implemented then it hasn't happened yet. Starting rumors like this and some of the others I've seen recently just continues to had fuel to the already stressed relationship between mainline and connection pilots.


furloughed DAL737FO
GII/GIII FO

 

[skiddriver]

You know, I have to throw in with DAL737FO here. For starters, I heard this same 90 seat rumor last summer when I was in initial training, right about the same time we were told to be ready to get displaced to DFW. I still seem to be in that CVG crashpad though. I'll believe this rumor when I have to duck walk under the wing to check the wheel well.

The temperature on this board is usually pretty restrained compared to some of the other boards I've frequented, but it still makes me shake my head when I see a couple of folks continually try and get a rise out of the crowd.

Rumors are rumors and should be treated as such until they are proven to be real. And all of the folks who seem to delight in trying to maintain or increase the level of antagonism between the mainline and DCI pilot groups, you guys need to grow up. Their have been plenty of management and MEC level decisions that are made without any input from the line pilots. Decisions like who gets hired, or what size aircraft are flown. I've found over the years (in my recent previous life), to never pass up an opportunity to not say something I might regret later. It makes it easier on your conscience late at night when you should be counting your blessings.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

One very interesting thing none of you have brought up is the Iraq war! I would bet that that is what Leo is planninbg on. No, he will not need any more FM. After all, the seat limits illegally negotiated for us at Delta with out our MEC being involved is not a FM item.

When , not if, the war starts, Leo will threaten BANKRUPTCY and we will be operating all the 70's and 90's we want.

Ofcourse, just my opinion. He has to have something in mind, and this makes the most sense.

Just think. If the Delta MEC dinosaurs had been a little smarter, this subject would not of been discussed today.

You seriously need to look at who is running your MEC. They gladly eat their young to protect themselves. Just wait until Leo follows U and thratens their retirement. It will be a masacre.

 

[captainv]

My .02

Here's the latest I've heard, from a DAL instructor pilot who jumpseated with me on a recent Comair flight...

Song actually does have some reasoned research behind it. it's primarily targeted at women. apparently the studies show that it's the wife who makes the bulk of the decisions about where to fly, how much to spend, etc. (the wife makes the decisions? who knew? ) the name is also meant to drive a lot of marketing tie-ins, i.e. with movies, the grammys, etc. the onboard multimedia system will have hundreds of movies and mp3s for pax to select on their flight. also e-mail, and shopping via the web (no more Skymall!) will it work - who knows, but at least it's better than United say, hmmm, i guess we need an LCC.

727s gone by May, MD-11s by year's end.

DAL has no current intention to buy the 90-seater. (either for mainline or DCI). they are in love with the 70 seater though, apparently it's a money-making machine... Delta also has most of the options for CRJs coming off the line, so Delta can buy as many as they want, while preventing the competition from snapping them up.

now here's something interesting: Delta had to stop furloughs because of what they said was Force Manure. the arbitrator ruled against Delta, said they were doing it for the poor economic climate, not 9/11. they've also laid the groundwork for recalling the furloughees. it's based on revenue seat miles at pre-9/11 levels. once they exceed that, the furloughees have to be recalled. the revenue seat miles are company wide, not just mainline. it includes DCI. so, Delta is parking airplanes. ASA is replacing the Brasilia, but the fleet growth is fairly stagnant. Comair is adding 30+ planes this year. so, if the company can exceed pre-9/11 RSMs, furloughees will start flying again. if so, it'll be a direct result of Comair's growth. i realize this won't change many opinions on this board, but hey, it's a start...

 

[General Lee]

Afellowaviator,

Leo Mullin was quoted saying in Boca Raton yesterday at an aviation conference, "depending on the length of the war, little or no extra downsizing will be required..." Do you think this will be a long war? I think Bush will throw everything he can at them first, stun them, and then it will be over---maybe two weeks max. What if there is some "street to street fighting" in Baghdad? Well, we call in a B-1 and drop 1 big bunker buster bomb on to that building, it falls, other people watch it fall, and the shooting stops. I hope it will be short and hopefully without much extra damage to the people over there. Then hopefully oil prices will go down and the economy will eventually get better. (It can only go up....)


I do see a lot more 70 seaters in the future, and 737-600's (106 pax) planes to replace the 737-200. Delta was approved by the FAA to have common cockpits with the same cockpit layout for the 737-600, 737-800, 757,767, 767-400, and 777---all with the same identical cockpits----at a reported cost of $2mil per airplane (757 and 767 mods)---and all with one type rating. It will save lots of cash in training. By the way, there is a huge displacement bid due tomorrow with 713 displacements and 355 or so Advanced entitlements (awards--due to retirements etc)--which obviously has an end total of about 350 or so surpluses. Apparently this will result in nearly 2100 new trainings. Now that will cost some $$$$. Time to get some 70 seat RJ's in to help with the 350 surplus pilots.....

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[spinup]

General Lee

With all due respect, DALPA does not seem to have a good track record when it comes to outsourced flying. If I’m not mistaken, the ratio of small jets to mainline is higher with Delta and it’s affiliates than at any other airline. DALPA’s contract appears to have given up the farm in the 50/70-seat market. Sadly, the pattern bargaining fallout continues to have reaching effect. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but from my perspective missteps have already occurred. I hope that DALPA can keep their eye on the ball this time, if there is any validity to this rumor.

 

[embdrvr]

strong words

My brother bought a 1 way tickect from tpa to lax connecting in MEM for 325.00 ON SWA. That is our real enemy!

SWA is the enemy??? I thought Iraq is the enemy. Man, now I'm really confused.
SWA airlines is proof of capitalism in action. Offer a service that people want at a fair price and they will do business with you. My friends that work for SWA love their job and don't complain about the pay.
If I had to pick someone to name as an enemy I'd be looking at management of all these bankrupt or about to be bankrupt major airlines. They are the ones that got us into this mess with a little help from ALPA.

 

[mad691]

SWA doesn't fly to MEM.

 

[General Lee]

Spinup,

We actually have a great scope clause when it comes to 70 seaters----only 57 allowed between all of the DCI carriers---thru 2005 and then 2 more years of negotiations after that. As far as the 50 seaters--well, they do give a business advantage over props, and the 50 seaters are limited on what they can do. I beleive the current % of DCI flying to Mainline flying is 43%, up from 36% a year ago---and limited to that unless something catastrophic happens. To keep the 43% increasing with RJ's, they will also have to increase mainline flying. (more mainline = more DCI flying) If Delta wants anymore 70 seaters (which they like a lot) or 90 seaters (I doubt that---the 737-600 will have 106 pax, and Delta is apparently looking at those for 737-200 replacement) they will have to come to Dalpa---and we would put our furloughed pilots in them---in a seperate subsidiary to keep out the integration idea. Yes, we have over 1000 Rj's on order or optioned--but that will help with our mainline percentage also. Dalpa will not allow more growth on the DCI side without helping our furloughs first.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[flaps30]

General Lee

Do you ever fly ? I knight you the offical "board stalker". Get a life buddy and go make some money for the team.

 

[Heavy Set]

Flaps30,

Nice remark. Very professional. General Lee makes some excellent points - very logical. He seems very well informed and he sticks to his guns.

Why don't you wake up to reality - Dalpa will do anything to get its furloughed pilots back (as any Union should - right?). Why should the partner carriers benefit in terms of jobs while furloughees remain on the street? Can you answer that one? Returning furloughees to the line should be an absolute priority...

You talk about the "team" and yet your attitude is not pro-team (Delta group). General Lee is speaking for other Delta pilots (and his remarks mirror those of the many Delta friends I have) and he understands the pilot contract - many people on this forum do NOT.

Sometimes the truth HURTS - and it is obvious that you and others, as Jack Nicholson said, "CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH..."

 

[wil]

Embdrvr- sorry I should have clarified that the low cost sameday walkup fare is our enemy/competition. The point I was trying to make (the connection city really doen't matter except to the anal board members) is that a sameday walkup fare at Delta would probably be 3 or 4 times higher! SWA has a biz plan that works and I respect that and Delta and the subsidiaries (I'm at ASA) have got to get our act together and quickly! . The high price biz fare is gone! Lean times and internet pricing is forcing the fares down and I think will keep them down for quite some time. I respect General Lee, FDJ and NYRangers' opinions and I think that we need to pull together. We should have our furloughed brothers and sisters flying with us and off the street until conditions improve at mainline. All the namecalling and bickering between our groups does nothing to help our situation

 

[embdrvr]

I respect General Lee, FDJ and NYRangers' opinions and I think that we need to pull together. We should have our furloughed brothers and sisters flying with us and off the street until conditions improve at mainline. All the namecalling and bickering between our groups does nothing to help our situation

I have to agree with you there. I'm still very confused as to why anyone would object to a furloughee being able to work for any regional affiliate so long as they are not afforded super seniority or other nonsense. I'm not sure what point Lawson was trying to make by denying mainline guys an opportunity to stay current and off unemployment benefits. It would be a totally different story if they were talking J4J but I don't think they were.
What a mess.

 

[General Lee]

Flaps30,

I fly all of the time, infact I got nearly 85 hours last month because scheduling got me for a 15 hour 3 day right around my 70 hour mark. I fly a lot more than the average Delta pilot because I sometimes rotate from having a line and getting reserve. The flights I fly bring in a lot more money than the seven legs a day you fly. And, remember that we had a $177 million profit last month---with my help---so thanks. The losses we incurred were from early parking of the 727's, MD-11's, Song start up($65 mill) and the 700 Kiosk purchase($30mil). So, I think we are doing just fine---with or without me. Thanks Heavy Set for your support.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[aspire]

delta Dollars $$$$

"700 Kiosk purchase($30mil"

No wonder Delta is losing money. That's almost $43,000 per kiosk. I bet Leo's old Harvard buddies run/own the kiosk company, just like the whole wired workforce thing....and you know, I can't even get the kiosk to take my pass card!!!

 

[General Lee]

aspire,

Yes, that may be a large upfront cost, but kiosks do not require medical insurance, three weeks vactation, or 45 min lunch breaks. Leo has figured that this investment will pay off in the end, and he is offering early retirements to the senior ticket counter agents (a lot of those early outs were recording in one time charges----or in other words a lot of our past losses were from early out packages---not necessarily losses from lack of PAX) and now only 5 or 6 people work behind the counter when there used to be 10-12. When we come out of this slump, Delta will be positioned better than any other airline. The check in lines move a lot faster, the PAX are a lot happier, and things are a lot more efficient. Let's hope they don't invent droids to do all of our jobs anytime soon. (Autopilot doesn't count)

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SiuDude]

D'Angelo is a ******************************bag

 

[goahead]

Yes Comair will be flying 90 seaters, but it will be for MESA after they buy them. This will happen just like DAL will announce the 787 orders
after they come out of bankruptcy.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

General Lee- With all due respect- My brother bought a 1 way tickect from tpa to lax connecting in MEM for 325.00 ON SWA. That is our real enemy! All this talk of one list et cetera is B.S . if we don't survive!! I refuse to argue the politics/cost efficiency of our aircraft- you will due that for us, we are and will operate at a profit (your subsidariary-ASA). I hope we can find a home for our furoughed brother/sisters' sorry for the spelling I'm drunk! Wil

According to Expedia your brother could have flown DAL nonstop for as little as $331.00. 6 bucks and no stop in Memphis. Yeah, it's all SWA's fault. Oh and BTW that was for a round trip.

 

[ackattacker]

Guys, this thread is from the mesozoic era. let it rest in peace.