Colorado Leads

[jacksjj]

I am a current 121 FO, looking for something on the Corporate/Charter/Private side in Denver and the surrounding area. I am brand new to the area, and have no leads whatsoever. Any help is GREATLY appreciated.

~3500TT
~3000Turbine
~2500Multi
~CL600, EMB170, and BE30 experience.

 

[guido411]

Reality check. . .

You're an airline pilot, you don't know the area, you don't know anybody in the area, you're looking for a change into a career where almost all of the 100 (unemployed) applicants for the 3 jobs are from the area and do know somebody. It doesn't hurt to throw applications and resumes to people but how can you possibly expect good leads on FI with the current circumstances?

Just so my post isn't condemned as being harsh or flame or what-have-you. . .my advice is start knocking on doors. Any door at any airport will do. You have to start somewhere getting to know people. It's the only way into corporate aviation, at least for jobs that are worth a sh!t.

Good luck.

 

[pilot error]

colorado was hard before the economy turned south.

i know of a few airplanes that have been sold. i haven't heard of anyone looking for people.

good luck.

 

[TMMT]

I just help I guy find an apartment who relocated to SoCal from Co because of the job situation.

Good luck in your search!

 

[cjdriver]

Hate to say it, but I wouldn't lead with the 121 FO thing. Most corporate flight dept's sh!tcan that one immediately.

 

[BoilerUP]

Hate to say it, but I wouldn't lead with the 121 FO thing. Most corporate flight dept's sh!tcan that one immediately.

That's a shortsighted and naive way to cull the resume pile, but I suppose its as effective as any...

 

[bizjet800]

Hate to say it, but I wouldn't lead with the 121 FO thing. Most corporate flight dept's sh!tcan that one immediately.

Well it doesn't matter if you lead with it, it will be quite obvious when the last employer on your resume is [insert 121 commuter here].

Good luck, its a tough road right now.

 

[TMMT]

I dunno about round filing the 121 guys/gal's resumes right out of the gate, my experience has been most operators will give them a shot at an interview and those who interview well will get bumped up the list.

 

[rumrnr78]

We had a well rounded group at "T". Good mix of corporate, airline and military. Unfortunately, the RJ Mafia got the boot!
Focus your resume towards customer/owner service. They know 121 training so they know they have someone with a good verifiable background.
As you know, the market is pretty thin and would I highly suggest looking outside of Colorado for a job. Check out my current position, I am not kidding. And, I was PIC current in two corporate aircraft types.
Cheers- Rum

 

[thatpilotguy]

I'm part of the Colorado Corporate Aviation world and I can confirm that it is a pretty difficult market to break into. It's a numbers game really...there just are not all that many corporate aviation departments here. As with any other part of the country, there have been aircraft sold, department cut backs, departments have relocated and some have closed. There are a handful of guys that I know personally and are well known in the community here still looking for a job.

The 121 thing isn't that big of an issue from my point of view. There are a couple of departments, ours included that have hired 121 guys and like the training, CRM and otherwise that come with a 121 guy. The biggest issue is being "unknown." Most want a known candidate for a position. We hired a 121 guy, he had corporate experience and is a long time friend of mine. We could have hired someone typed and current, but where more concerned about what type of person we where hiring.

Personally I think hiring is probably the hardest thing in corporate aviation. At this level of aviation almost everyone can fly a plane, but you can't teach personality. So much of what we do goes beyond flying the plane...and that's what you are really hiring for.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[rumrnr78]

I'm part of the Colorado Corporate Aviation world and I can confirm that it is a pretty difficult market to break into. It's a numbers game really...there just are not all that many corporate aviation departments here. As with any other part of the country, there have been aircraft sold, department cut backs, departments have relocated and some have closed. There are a handful of guys that I know personally and are well known in the community here still looking for a job.

The 121 thing isn't that big of an issue from my point of view. There are a couple of departments, ours included that have hired 121 guys and like the training, CRM and otherwise that come with a 121 guy. The biggest issue is being "unknown." Most want a known candidate for a position. We hired a 121 guy, he had corporate experience and is a long time friend of mine. We could have hired someone typed and current, but where more concerned about what type of person we where hiring.

Personally I think hiring is probably the hardest thing in corporate aviation. At this level of aviation almost everyone can fly a plane, but you can't teach personality. So much of what we do goes beyond flying the plane...and that's what you are really hiring for.

Just my 2 cents.

A sensible, well thought out response with a depth of caring to the poster. Is that allowed on FI?:laugh:

 

[LaGarbage Man]

I agree, A very well thought out and rational approach to hiring.
Great Post
That being said, I demand the Mods ban him for life, That will teach him.

 

[thatpilotguy]

Thanks for the compliments Rum, LaGarbage...much appreciated.

 

[CLECA]

Can someone please explain to me why corporate and 135 hate airline guys so much? I really don't get it. I mean here are guys that are young and eager and have been trained to a higher standard. They are trying to improve themselves and their position yet everyone says airline? see ya. I have been at both and made the transition after nine years of airline to corporate. I have been received well, I don't mind throwing bags, meeting pax or doing stuff that everyone says airline guys won't do. My transition went flawlessly and everybody is happy. So why are airline guys such a terrible find? Can someone please explain this to me.

 

[BoilerUP]

Can someone please explain to me why corporate and 135 hate airline guys so much?

Not all do...in fact many bizav pilots have an airline background.

 

[NGT]

Can someone please explain to me why corporate and 135 hate airline guys so much? I really don't get it. I mean here are guys that are young and eager and have been trained to a higher standard. They are trying to improve themselves and their position yet everyone says airline? see ya. I have been at both and made the transition after nine years of airline to corporate. I have been received well, I don't mind throwing bags, meeting pax or doing stuff that everyone says airline guys won't do. My transition went flawlessly and everybody is happy. So why are airline guys such a terrible find? Can someone please explain this to me.

Maybe it's the term "trained to a higher standard"! We have airline, military and corporate backgrounds in a very large 91 flight department and the training backgrounds seem pretty uniform but I can say the airline backgrounds take a while to adapt to the lifestyle. All great guys and girls but 121 to corporate is the biggest leap.

 

[Rick James]

Can someone please explain to me why corporate and 135 hate airline guys so much? I really don't get it. I mean here are guys that are young and eager and have been trained to a higher standard. They are trying to improve themselves and their position yet everyone says airline? see ya. I have been at both and made the transition after nine years of airline to corporate. I have been received well, I don't mind throwing bags, meeting pax or doing stuff that everyone says airline guys won't do. My transition went flawlessly and everybody is happy. So why are airline guys such a terrible find? Can someone please explain this to me.

Our flight department only hires prior 121 (captain) guys. The CP feels that the training and standards set in that enviornment is beneficial in our pt 91 dept.

None of the guys I know "hate'" airline guys, as we were once in that position.

 

[BoilerUP]

Our flight department only hires prior 121 (captain) guys. The CP feels that the training and standards set in that enviornment is beneficial in our pt 91 dept.

And that, I think, is the best example of hiring practices within the bizav industry:

The people in charge of the department (CP/ADM) are going to be predisposed to considering & hiring people with a background similar to their own, and biased against those with a background that differs from it.

 

[Brett Hull]

Our flight department only hires prior 121 (captain) guys. The CP feels that the training and standards set in that enviornment is beneficial in our pt 91 dept.

None of the guys I know "hate'" airline guys, as we were once in that position.

You know, 'cause we non 121 corporate guys are balling them up on a daily basis.

 

[rumrnr78]

Maybe it's the term "trained to a higher standard"! We have airline, military and corporate backgrounds in a very large 91 flight department and the training backgrounds seem pretty uniform but I can say the airline backgrounds take a while to adapt to the lifestyle. All great guys and girls but 121 to corporate is the biggest leap.

No disrespect but biggest how? My 121 PIC checkrides were job checkrides. I know guys who busted an oral and were off line without pay until the recheck. I know a guy who was two revisions behind (even though his takeoff and destination were current) and was taken offline for a spanking without pay for a few days. Ever have a Fed on a corporate jumpseat? Guaranteed it would freak most 91 pilots out (Heeeeeey!!). To a 121 pilot, a normal day at the office.
I loved my 121 training and background. Notice the past tense! I love the 91 world but much easier to go from strict to more "relaxed" in my book.
Having done my share of checkrides in both worlds I find a professional 91 checkride the most positive. But I had 7 years of ball busting prior...

Cheers- Rum

 

[NGT]

[/B]

No disrespect but biggest how? My 121 PIC checkrides were job checkrides. I know guys who busted an oral and were off line without pay until the recheck. I know a guy who was two revisions behind (even though his takeoff and destination were current) and was taken offline for a spanking without pay for a few days. Ever have a Fed on a corporate jumpseat? Guaranteed it would freak most 91 pilots out (Heeeeeey!!). To a 121 pilot, a normal day at the office.
I loved my 121 training and background. Notice the past tense! I love the 91 world but much easier to go from strict to more "relaxed" in my book.
Having done my share of checkrides in both worlds I find a professional 91 checkride the most positive. But I had 7 years of ball busting prior...

Cheers- Rum

I meant lifestyle leap. Other than between takeoff and landing what did your 121 and 91 work environment share in common. Both have good and bad aspects but don't seem to share anything in common unless you are comparing frax and 121 and that is even a stretch to compare. It's not an insult to either to say they have little in common but to say 121 is held to a higher standard could be quite insulting to a 91 operator. I have had Fed's in my jumpseat during my 135 corporate days and it is nowhere near as stressful as a CEO without catering or a rental car.

 

[pilot error]

[/B]

My 121 PIC checkrides were job checkrides.

depending on who you are flying for, pt 91 flights can be job flights.

 

[ttflyer]

[/B]

No disrespect but biggest how? My 121 PIC checkrides were job checkrides. I know guys who busted an oral and were off line without pay until the recheck. I know a guy who was two revisions behind (even though his takeoff and destination were current) and was taken offline for a spanking without pay for a few days. Ever have a Fed on a corporate jumpseat? Guaranteed it would freak most 91 pilots out (Heeeeeey!!). To a 121 pilot, a normal day at the office.
I loved my 121 training and background. Notice the past tense! I love the 91 world but much easier to go from strict to more "relaxed" in my book.
Having done my share of checkrides in both worlds I find a professional 91 checkride the most positive. But I had 7 years of ball busting prior...

Cheers- Rum

You're actually making the original point. All your talking about is the flying side of the job. Checkride this and Fed that - Blah Blah. The hardest thing for 121 guys to figure out when they get to corporate is that they are not being paid to fly (i.e. operate the machine), they are being paid for everything else. I love to fly. They pay me to wait. They pay me to be available when they want me to go regardless of what my wife had planned. They pay me for customer service. They pay me for not really having any "hard" days off even if I only fly five days a month. Airline guys are paid to fly and nothing else. They are job protected with contracts. They have sheduled days off and flexiblity in droping and swithing lines so they can do what they want. And for some reason many (not all) have a hard time transitioning corporate - probably because it is VERY different.

 

[Rick James]

You know, 'cause we non 121 corporate guys are balling them up on a daily basis.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was trying to say.

 

[g4800xp]

It goes way back

You're actually making the original point. All your talking about is the flying side of the job. Checkride this and Fed that - Blah Blah. The hardest thing for 121 guys to figure out when they get to corporate is that they are not being paid to fly (i.e. operate the machine), they are being paid for everything else. I love to fly. They pay me to wait. They pay me to be available when they want me to go regardless of what my wife had planned. They pay me for customer service. They pay me for not really having any "hard" days off even if I only fly five days a month. Airline guys are paid to fly and nothing else. They are job protected with contracts. They have sheduled days off and flexiblity in droping and swithing lines so they can do what they want. And for some reason many (not all) have a hard time transitioning corporate - probably because it is VERY different.

Great post. This divide goes way back to when corporate aviation was lumped in with sleazy chrater and freight dogs. Airline HR depts looked down on all non 121 ops and jobs were scarce. Airlines could pick the cream of the crop and the military provided that. Yes, airlines hired corp pilots but with airline start ups( Laker-PeoplesExp-etc) folding at a steady rate in the 60s,70s,80s they could hire their own. Typed, 121, ALPA pilots ready to work, who could blame them. This built a divide between 121 and 91 that is still there today. Some 121 guys are not or were not prepared for the job that ttflyer discribes, which is a great window to many 91 jobs.
My 2cents

 

[Brett Hull]

Yeah, that's exactly what I was trying to say.

It wasn't directed at you. But it sounds like your CP thinks we non-121 pilots are unsafe and incapable of ever maintaining a 121 inspired set of standards.

Just like the 91 companies that automatically round-file resumes from airline guys, it's all bull$hit.

 

[Rick James]

It wasn't directed at you. But it sounds like your CP thinks we non-121 pilots are unsafe and incapable of ever maintaining a 121 inspired set of standards.

Just like the 91 companies that automatically round-file resumes from airline guys, it's all bull$hit.

Agreed!
The only hiring a specific type of person shows a level ignorance.

 

[Turtledriver]

I mean here are guys that are young and eager and have been trained to a higher standard.

Trained to a higher standard? Higher than who? The guy on the street. a NASA pilot? I think the interview process will go smoothly if you open with that line. "Sir, I think I should be hired, obviously with my 121 background, I have been trained to a higher standard than your current pilots".

Eager = Broke?

This has success written all over it

 

[rumrnr78]

You're actually making the original point. All your talking about is the flying side of the job. Checkride this and Fed that - Blah Blah. The hardest thing for 121 guys to figure out when they get to corporate is that they are not being paid to fly (i.e. operate the machine), they are being paid for everything else. I love to fly. They pay me to wait. They pay me to be available when they want me to go regardless of what my wife had planned. They pay me for customer service. They pay me for not really having any "hard" days off even if I only fly five days a month. Airline guys are paid to fly and nothing else. They are job protected with contracts. They have sheduled days off and flexiblity in droping and swithing lines so they can do what they want. And for some reason many (not all) have a hard time transitioning corporate - probably because it is VERY different.

Sorry for the thread drift. If you read my intial post to the thread starter you will read that I mention customer service.
I treated my airline CRJ as a corporate bird, helping rampers with bags, putting away catering for my F.A. before he/she showed up, etc. Anything to get the flight out on time.
Ironically, I am now flying a corporate CRJ. Funny world aviation.

Cheers- Rum