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Cologan and TAB Express
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BRA
Rollins Rules!
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- 906
I work at colgan...and have heard nothing about any interviewing or any hiring. And nothing about any PFT. But pilots don't get the info...i am just offering what i know. If we interview i would guess it would be for people that are leaving, not expansion. I also would not be surprised at all if colgan goes to TAB for people. Just a guess...but about a third of our people are from gulfstream....so TAB wouldn't be too different. The company saves money everyway possible.......and they are the perfect candidate to take pilots that will buy their job. It's better to have people that already have money from their parents or whatever....that way they are not as unhappy about the pay rates here, and the lack of them ever getting better. The street captains we have are pretty much outraged over the entire system here.
TriDriver
Active member
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2002
- Posts
- 43
s3jetman said:
s3j
I instruct there part-time, and I haven't been out there since last week, but at that time NO!!!
First of all, TAB Express is not an airline. TAB is a flight school. All you can do there is get a Pvt SEL, Pvt MEL, Instrument, and Comm MEL.
Second of all, as of last week, they have no connection with any airline, Colgan included.
However, they are in the process of becoming an FAR part 142 "Training Center". As I understand it, a 142 operation can train pilots for any airline. TAB only has a C-172 sim, a Baron sim, a King Air 200 sim, and a couple of Beech 1900 sims. During all the ground school preparing the students for their initial pilot ratings, the courses use primarily King Air 90 and Beech 1900 systems. The flight training is done in the C-172, Seneca, and the old A/B90 King Airs. They are considering going to C-172 for the Pvt SEL, and then everything else will be done in the King Air.
So, if a student goes through all the TAB training, which includes a bunch of Beech 1900 systems training and simulator time, and a bunch of time in a 90 series King Air (including your initial ME, instrument, and Comm checkrides), an airline that operates Beech 1900's might be interested in a TAB graduate, even if they only have 350 to 400 hours total time. This is about the same, or maybe a little more, than a military pilot would have when they get into a C-130, C-17, P-3 or such as a copilot.
Overall, people on this forum seem to be cool with the Southwest requirement to buy yourself a 737 type-rating to even get a chance at an interview. I think TAB is somewhat similar. You train in a turbine powered, pressurized, radar equipped aircraft because you're training to be a professional pilot. You're not buying a job at any particular company, you're just training in an aircraft that is very similar to what a lot of airlines operate.
TAB offers training in turbine equipment in a multi-crew environment so that when you get your chance to go to work for an airline, you know turbine equipment and airline ops and you won't flunk out of training. With the "airline training records actl", your training records and problems you might have had at one airline follow you around for the rest of your career. When you get your big chance, you don't want to blow it.
For that reason, TAB has had a number 1000 to 1500 hour pilots with CFI's come through. They want to know they're well prepared when an airline gives them a chance. Several of those CFI's are teaching the Pvt and Instrument training at TAB while they are waiting for the industry to turn around.
So, as far as I know from last week, there is no PFT arrangement with Colgan. The only PFT that goes on there is the same as at any other FBO or flight school - you pay for your Pvt, MEL, Inst, Comm, etc. I don't know anybody that gives it to you for free!!
TriDriver Bob
chperplt
Registered User
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- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 4,123
Not TAB, but unfortunately the story is true. Colgan announced to the masses yesterday that they have signed an agreement with the Regional Airline Academy in Deland, FL to provide students/applicants or what ever you want to call them for both the Beech and the Saab. The PFTers will be paying at their own expense the cost of training. From what I hear, the cost is WAY more than what the true cost of training would be.
The first 8 PFTs will be starting their Saab training on Monday.
I'm not at all for PFTing, but if you're going to PFT.. why don't you do if someplace that will give you job security. That place isn't here.
The first 8 PFTs will be starting their Saab training on Monday.
I'm not at all for PFTing, but if you're going to PFT.. why don't you do if someplace that will give you job security. That place isn't here.
English
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 3,374
So, if these new-hires will be paying more than Colgan's market rate for Saab training, will FSI be training them, or are they getting Colgan training? Seems if they are paying more than the market rate, they should be getting better-than-average training...
Does RAA provide the Saab training? What do they know about the Saab, anyway?
Does RAA provide the Saab training? What do they know about the Saab, anyway?
Unbelieveable!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am ashamed to even say I worked for such a outfit. That is embarassing. Well all I can say is I hope someone is not dumb enough to pay $17,000 to work for such a outfit making $21.00 per hour, $1575 per month. According to my calculations $17,000 PFT, you make $18,900 = Your first year as a FO at the bottom of the barrell airline, and are making a mere $1,900. How sad. I hope for the sake of the industry that people don't pay. I can tell you now, no job, especially at Colgan is worth $17,000. Not to mention the CA's at Colgan (at least on the Saab) will treat them like crap. (At least the ones I know will) They came to Colgan because at the time it was not PFT. I can only hope and that the entire Colgan company and Family don't survive the downturn in the industry. They don't deserve to even be running a place like that. That is right I hope they lose their 121 certificate. As a matter of a fact I hear they haven't been complying with the PRIA, with the former Mesa/CCAir pilots. As far as I know they have 30 days from reciept to send off records and are mandated to do so by the FAA. Friends have told me that they are holding out on sending records, because pilots left on short notice, trying to piss off the former employee. Completly unprofessional!!! This here only shows a part of the type of operation they have.
My suggestion:
Stay away, stay FAR, FAR away.....
PS - I guess their former employees (Furloughees) could care less about the training contract being enforced and this is why Colgan is taking measures such as PFT. Am I right?
I am ashamed to even say I worked for such a outfit. That is embarassing. Well all I can say is I hope someone is not dumb enough to pay $17,000 to work for such a outfit making $21.00 per hour, $1575 per month. According to my calculations $17,000 PFT, you make $18,900 = Your first year as a FO at the bottom of the barrell airline, and are making a mere $1,900. How sad. I hope for the sake of the industry that people don't pay. I can tell you now, no job, especially at Colgan is worth $17,000. Not to mention the CA's at Colgan (at least on the Saab) will treat them like crap. (At least the ones I know will) They came to Colgan because at the time it was not PFT. I can only hope and that the entire Colgan company and Family don't survive the downturn in the industry. They don't deserve to even be running a place like that. That is right I hope they lose their 121 certificate. As a matter of a fact I hear they haven't been complying with the PRIA, with the former Mesa/CCAir pilots. As far as I know they have 30 days from reciept to send off records and are mandated to do so by the FAA. Friends have told me that they are holding out on sending records, because pilots left on short notice, trying to piss off the former employee. Completly unprofessional!!! This here only shows a part of the type of operation they have.
My suggestion:
Stay away, stay FAR, FAR away.....
PS - I guess their former employees (Furloughees) could care less about the training contract being enforced and this is why Colgan is taking measures such as PFT. Am I right?
CHPERPLT
[/I]I'm not at all for PFTing, but if you're going to PFT.. why don't you do if someplace that will give you job security. That place isn't here.[/I]
Well said. As I have stated on previous post, Colgan is going nowhere in a hearbeat. I personally think with the cuts in EAS funding, and their lack of perfomance and maintenace, they will probably lose thier US Airways contract, and end up furloughing. Trust me I have seen all I need to see of Colgan, and it sucks. A couple of CA friends of mine on the Saab say they have been getting Line Checks from the FAA pretty much every week. Hopefully that shows you how their maintence is done. And remember if you are thinking of PFT at Colgan, the summer will be over soon and it will begin their slow months. Expect to get furloughed as soon as you finish training.
PS - If you think you are getting a deal with $17,000 think again. The training contract Colgan use to have was for $12,000 for 12 months. Yeah that is right you are getting ripped a new one!!!!
Enjoy it.
[/I]I'm not at all for PFTing, but if you're going to PFT.. why don't you do if someplace that will give you job security. That place isn't here.[/I]
Well said. As I have stated on previous post, Colgan is going nowhere in a hearbeat. I personally think with the cuts in EAS funding, and their lack of perfomance and maintenace, they will probably lose thier US Airways contract, and end up furloughing. Trust me I have seen all I need to see of Colgan, and it sucks. A couple of CA friends of mine on the Saab say they have been getting Line Checks from the FAA pretty much every week. Hopefully that shows you how their maintence is done. And remember if you are thinking of PFT at Colgan, the summer will be over soon and it will begin their slow months. Expect to get furloughed as soon as you finish training.
PS - If you think you are getting a deal with $17,000 think again. The training contract Colgan use to have was for $12,000 for 12 months. Yeah that is right you are getting ripped a new one!!!!
Enjoy it.
flyboy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2002
- Posts
- 277
Buddro,
Not to start flamebaiting, but this is not PFT. If you want to call it something, call it PFJ (pay for job). Colgan is not requiring these pilots to pay them for their beech 1900 or saab 340 training, nor are they making them pay for their hotels during training. This is not PFT. This is actually better training than you or I recieved. They are getting certification and then training in turbo-props flying real trips. This will better prepare them for a job flying an advanced aircraft. Everyday I fly with students in the pattern, practice area, and shooting ILS approaches in 172s and 182s. Tell me that I'm better prepared to fly Turbo-props and regional jets at a thousand hours than they are at 400. Granted, I will have more actual time in the air which gives me bragging rights in the total time column, but THEY will be the one sitting in the right seat of an airliner and I will still be here in my cessna. More power to them.
Not to start flamebaiting, but this is not PFT. If you want to call it something, call it PFJ (pay for job). Colgan is not requiring these pilots to pay them for their beech 1900 or saab 340 training, nor are they making them pay for their hotels during training. This is not PFT. This is actually better training than you or I recieved. They are getting certification and then training in turbo-props flying real trips. This will better prepare them for a job flying an advanced aircraft. Everyday I fly with students in the pattern, practice area, and shooting ILS approaches in 172s and 182s. Tell me that I'm better prepared to fly Turbo-props and regional jets at a thousand hours than they are at 400. Granted, I will have more actual time in the air which gives me bragging rights in the total time column, but THEY will be the one sitting in the right seat of an airliner and I will still be here in my cessna. More power to them.
Flyboy
Oh contraire my friend....
It is in deed PFT, it just seems you dont exactly know what PFT is. DO SOME RESEARCH. PFT is when you "pay" and airline for a job. AKA: Taking that job from someone like yourself who is "qualified" and has "paid your dues" flight instructing. It is something that was done at some airlines back in early 90's when hiring was slow and the airlines decided they needed extra income. Who better to make money from when there are pilots in the masses just dying to get a job. Listen, this is not direceted in anyway against you personally. I just feel as if you need some instruction on the PFT matter. As I said again, just think of it this way: The guys who PFT with Colgan, are indeed taking the job right directly out of under YOU!!!!! Unless of course you are willing to pay them $17,000. Good luck and whatever you do, please do some reseach before you decide that PFT is ok. Just seems as if it is the cool thing to do is to be flying for a airline. Indeed it is not, your integrity as a pilot will be lost forever. Never give up integrity for any job.
Again, good luck.
Buddro
Oh contraire my friend....
It is in deed PFT, it just seems you dont exactly know what PFT is. DO SOME RESEARCH. PFT is when you "pay" and airline for a job. AKA: Taking that job from someone like yourself who is "qualified" and has "paid your dues" flight instructing. It is something that was done at some airlines back in early 90's when hiring was slow and the airlines decided they needed extra income. Who better to make money from when there are pilots in the masses just dying to get a job. Listen, this is not direceted in anyway against you personally. I just feel as if you need some instruction on the PFT matter. As I said again, just think of it this way: The guys who PFT with Colgan, are indeed taking the job right directly out of under YOU!!!!! Unless of course you are willing to pay them $17,000. Good luck and whatever you do, please do some reseach before you decide that PFT is ok. Just seems as if it is the cool thing to do is to be flying for a airline. Indeed it is not, your integrity as a pilot will be lost forever. Never give up integrity for any job.
Again, good luck.
Buddro
By the way,
Yes Colgan is requiring the pilots to pay for their training. Then if it is successful they are entitled to the job. The training the PFTers will recieve at Colgan will not be better than any training you or I will recieve. As I never have and never will, and you never have PFTed. It might look decieving but I need to change my profile. I have done many training courses: airline, corporate, and freight.
Buddro
Yes Colgan is requiring the pilots to pay for their training. Then if it is successful they are entitled to the job. The training the PFTers will recieve at Colgan will not be better than any training you or I will recieve. As I never have and never will, and you never have PFTed. It might look decieving but I need to change my profile. I have done many training courses: airline, corporate, and freight.
Buddro
pft
yep they Colgan , sent iformation to our school in Florida.
Pay $18,000.00 Dollars get a job i think thats pft.
if iam going to spend that kind of money , i would go to simuflite and get a type rating from them, i understand that they have a good reputation for being a very good school to go, and they are well respected.
Does any have any other information on them...
flyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy safeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
yep they Colgan , sent iformation to our school in Florida.
Pay $18,000.00 Dollars get a job i think thats pft.
if iam going to spend that kind of money , i would go to simuflite and get a type rating from them, i understand that they have a good reputation for being a very good school to go, and they are well respected.
Does any have any other information on them...
flyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy safeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
chperplt
Registered User
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 4,123
Well, I wish all these PFTers luck. The first class is made up of 8 Saab pilots. So far, the reaction I'm hearing from the Saab captains is that these folks are in for some enjoyable flying. Enjoyable if you like the gear handle and push to talk switch.
I'm a Beech captain, so I guess I get some extra time before I get to fly with them.
An indirect quote from our DO.. (Indirect because I heard it second hand)
"Any pilot can fly an airplane. 200 hours or 2000 hours, it's all stick and rudder... Maybe a 2000 hour pilot has a little more judgement... maybe."
The only joy I'll get in flying with these low time PFTers is watching them squirm when we shoot that 1800rvr approach loaded with ice or the 1/2 mile approach into the uncontrolled airport surrounded by mountains.
I'm a Beech captain, so I guess I get some extra time before I get to fly with them.
An indirect quote from our DO.. (Indirect because I heard it second hand)
"Any pilot can fly an airplane. 200 hours or 2000 hours, it's all stick and rudder... Maybe a 2000 hour pilot has a little more judgement... maybe."
The only joy I'll get in flying with these low time PFTers is watching them squirm when we shoot that 1800rvr approach loaded with ice or the 1/2 mile approach into the uncontrolled airport surrounded by mountains.
Chperplt...
You couldn't have said it any better. I am hearing the same thing that you are from CA's on Saab. God forbid there be a accident because of some low time PFT SCUMBAG flying a planeful of passengers.
All I can say is if they are faced with the many maintence issues I was during my stint as a FO there, they wont live long.
Word of advice for the PFTers: Do a exceptionally well preflight.... Your ticket is on the line.
As for the second hand information from the D.O. (Donnie Nunn) I hope he gets what he wanted. Well see how good of a stick those losers are when there is heavy ice accumulation shooting a ILS to mins, or better yet a VOR circle to land. I would like to see Donnie Nunn's face when one of the PFTers screw up one of the aircraft.
Colgan at least has one thing going for them and that is the PFTers will do anything required to keep their jobs after paying for them. That is the benefit to Colgan. Pretty sad huh....
Buddro
You couldn't have said it any better. I am hearing the same thing that you are from CA's on Saab. God forbid there be a accident because of some low time PFT SCUMBAG flying a planeful of passengers.
All I can say is if they are faced with the many maintence issues I was during my stint as a FO there, they wont live long.
Word of advice for the PFTers: Do a exceptionally well preflight.... Your ticket is on the line.
As for the second hand information from the D.O. (Donnie Nunn) I hope he gets what he wanted. Well see how good of a stick those losers are when there is heavy ice accumulation shooting a ILS to mins, or better yet a VOR circle to land. I would like to see Donnie Nunn's face when one of the PFTers screw up one of the aircraft.
Colgan at least has one thing going for them and that is the PFTers will do anything required to keep their jobs after paying for them. That is the benefit to Colgan. Pretty sad huh....
Buddro
bobbysamd
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
PFT
It all proves that you don't need experience, just the ability and wherewithal to write that check. Not to mention enough disregard for others, and self, to cut in line.
I appreciate Chperplt's comment about shooting the ILS to low minima in ice. To that end, perhaps these newbie P-F-Ters would be well advised to read the chapters in Fate is the Hunter about flying DC-2s and '3s in ice, and Pete Fusco about flying a C-46 in ice.
I also appreciate TriDriver's comments about TAB training. Not the way I would recommend, but interesting food for thought, nonetheless.
I'll second that.Iced_up said:
It all proves that you don't need experience, just the ability and wherewithal to write that check. Not to mention enough disregard for others, and self, to cut in line.
I appreciate Chperplt's comment about shooting the ILS to low minima in ice. To that end, perhaps these newbie P-F-Ters would be well advised to read the chapters in Fate is the Hunter about flying DC-2s and '3s in ice, and Pete Fusco about flying a C-46 in ice.
I also appreciate TriDriver's comments about TAB training. Not the way I would recommend, but interesting food for thought, nonetheless.
Last edited:
BRA
Rollins Rules!
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2002
- Posts
- 906
Getting a job is really coming down to who has the deepest pockets. That is the part about this that really is a shame. the 1500 hour CFI that is busting his arse to get to 200 multi....his or her hard work is being undercut by someone that pays to get the job done in 400 hours. Not all PFT people a can take all the heat...when i got into the industry i had no idea what i even needed to get my private...i had no idea what PFT was.....their are many 17-20 year olds who's parents are making the decisions on how they get to that first job. Just keep this in mind. It is true. If you were 18 and your dad says he thinks you should go to RAA, and he will pay for it....what do you say??....especially if you are brand new and not well read on the industry?? Just keeping this conversation interesting...i am not in favor of PFT.
VGerect
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2002
- Posts
- 127
chperplt said:
Thats a textbook example of good CRM. Do you think the PAX in the the back are safer with your attitude or a low time F/O?
If you have a problem with the F/O arrangment big a big boy and talk to your DO or CP. Don't take it out on a new F/O who's in his/her first airline enviorment.
I'm sure somewhere in your FOM it says one of the Captains duties is to assist the CP in the furtherance of the F/O's training and progression. Try to show these low time pilots your professionalism and maturity.
Iced_up
Platinum member
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2001
- Posts
- 52
I don't think so
Been there and done that. The CP and especially the DO don't really care about those things. Just make sure you are at your assigned duty, the flights are on time and you didn't bend any metal.
If I have to fly with any PFTers you can guarantee that they will hear my feelings regarding the scumbags that they are. The CRM will be there but that doesn't require too much effort on a day-to-day basis. But don't expect conversation other than what is required.
As far as being harsh with new FO's at their first airline job. Oh well. They should know what they are getting into before they sign on the dotted line. Oh yeah, I forgot, they probably need daddy there to help them out since they forced them to go to an outfit like RAA.
If an FO is having problems I will go out of my way to help them and show them or explain the right way. Is that spelled out in the Flight Ops Manual? It might be the right thing to do for our fellow brethren but a PFT person is not part of my brotherhood.
It's time to grow up. Quit taking jobs away from people who deserve them and have already paid their dues. Paying your dues doesn't include having daddy write a check.
This is a great business to be in but the fire needs more water not fuel!!!!
VGerect said:
Been there and done that. The CP and especially the DO don't really care about those things. Just make sure you are at your assigned duty, the flights are on time and you didn't bend any metal.
If I have to fly with any PFTers you can guarantee that they will hear my feelings regarding the scumbags that they are. The CRM will be there but that doesn't require too much effort on a day-to-day basis. But don't expect conversation other than what is required.
As far as being harsh with new FO's at their first airline job. Oh well. They should know what they are getting into before they sign on the dotted line. Oh yeah, I forgot, they probably need daddy there to help them out since they forced them to go to an outfit like RAA.
If an FO is having problems I will go out of my way to help them and show them or explain the right way. Is that spelled out in the Flight Ops Manual? It might be the right thing to do for our fellow brethren but a PFT person is not part of my brotherhood.
It's time to grow up. Quit taking jobs away from people who deserve them and have already paid their dues. Paying your dues doesn't include having daddy write a check.
This is a great business to be in but the fire needs more water not fuel!!!!
logolight
Air Wisconsin
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2003
- Posts
- 236
It sounds to me like Colgan is trying to get away with filling the right seat with a warm body without having to pay for it just to fulfill pt. 121 requirements. Captains will end up flying single pilot operations with the PFTers acting as a human TCAS. If they get enough PFT's, eventualy there will be no FO's left on the payroll.
The real bad thing is that this could lead to preferential hiring of pft's over qualified pilots and other airlines could follow suit if this proves successful for Colgan.
_______________________________________________
Fly safe, stay unified.
The real bad thing is that this could lead to preferential hiring of pft's over qualified pilots and other airlines could follow suit if this proves successful for Colgan.
_______________________________________________
Fly safe, stay unified.
Last edited:
WrightAvia
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2002
- Posts
- 1,223
PFT? Let's make it fair!
7,000 for a CFI job.
10,000 for a 135 job.
17,000 for a commuter job.
27,000 for an LCC job.
37,000 for a national job...PLUS the cost of a 737 type, if going to a national like SWA or USAirways.
77,000 for a major airline job.
And you can only progress upwards via the line of progression. IE: by the time you get to the major job you will have spent money on all your ratings plus the costs of "training" into all of your line of progression jobs...175,000 dollars plus the cost of ratings. Or about 210,000 dollars. Not to shabby. You can't even buy a new 182 for that amount.
And it should all be guaranteed flight training and move ups. Plus in the event of another industry turndown...FLOW BACKS! All the way to CFI. Heck, we could even flow you back to your old desk, fast food or car wash job, if need be!
7,000 for a CFI job.
10,000 for a 135 job.
17,000 for a commuter job.
27,000 for an LCC job.
37,000 for a national job...PLUS the cost of a 737 type, if going to a national like SWA or USAirways.
77,000 for a major airline job.
And you can only progress upwards via the line of progression. IE: by the time you get to the major job you will have spent money on all your ratings plus the costs of "training" into all of your line of progression jobs...175,000 dollars plus the cost of ratings. Or about 210,000 dollars. Not to shabby. You can't even buy a new 182 for that amount.
And it should all be guaranteed flight training and move ups. Plus in the event of another industry turndown...FLOW BACKS! All the way to CFI. Heck, we could even flow you back to your old desk, fast food or car wash job, if need be!
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