Colgan Pilots...

[LanceAir]

You Colganites keep up this anti-union crap, and ya'll will get stapled when the time comes.

And it will be the red stapler from Office Space that will get the job done.

A staple, no fences, no furlough protection.

Thanks for the awesome chest-thumping...this kind of BS is the reason we have problems talking to pilots that aren't familar with unions...

All you guys and gals out there that want your questions answered about "what will ALPA do for me?" To find out, either show up on one of the days in EWR, or feel free to PM me, and we can have a phone conversation...we need union protection before the furloughs, and all the teamsters will do for us is allow management to have a say in a seniority list merger. If we vote in ALPA, it all stays in house, and management stays out of the way.

and...as Doin time said, if we get teamsters, then merge, there will have to be another election and PNCL ALPA (1200) will obviously have the votes against CJC (480)...so how much effort do you think they will give?

 

[DoinTime]

and...as Doin time said, if we get teamsters, then merge, there will have to be another election and PNCL ALPA (1200) will obviously have the votes against CJC (480)...so how much effort do you think they will give?

Its actually very likely that there won't even be an election. To require an election the smaller carrier has to represent 1/3 of the total pilot group.

PCL - 1300
CJC - 480
Total = 1780

To require an election the teamsters would have to represent 587 of the total pilots (clearly, not the case now or into the foreseeable future). IMO, the teamsters would likely roll over and cut their losses at Colgan in the event of a merger.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why anyone would reject democracy and self rule to be the subjects of management is beyond me...

Capitalism is not democracy.

Employment in the US via the free market system is not liberty.

The free market system and capitalism are good things, and its working well for the Chinese as well, however, what the chinese don't have is a voice.

What makes this country, the USA, great, is the ability for people to claim their rights, defend them and protect themselves.

Voting for union representation is not about "what is in it for me".... It is about being custodians of the profession.

Would you rather it be everyman for himself in this profession or the profession for every pilot....

Real Americans are custodians of democracy, self representation and self government.

 

[McNugget]

Why anyone would reject democracy and self rule to be the subjects of management is beyond me...

Capitalism is not democracy.

Employment in the US via the free market system is not liberty.

The free market system and capitalism are good things, and its working well for the Chinese as well, however, what the chinese don't have is a voice.

What makes this country, the USA, great, is the ability for people to claim their rights, defend them and protect themselves.

Voting for union representation is not about "what is in it for me".... It is about being custodians of the profession.

Would you rather it be everyman for himself in this profession or the profession for every pilot....

Real Americans are custodians of democracy, self representation and self government.

A "Real American" votes whatever way he damn well pleases.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

A "Real American" votes whatever way he damn well pleases.

Does that include choosing not to choose? All while embracing chains wrapped in silk?

 

[playinskys]

ALPA/ 401K revisited - read that fourm, If ALPA quit trying to buy there way into airlines maybe they wouldn't have to spend money and time trying to steal more of your money to pay for it. I guess they just do whatever they want.

 

[McNugget]

I predict the bankruptcy and collapse of ALPA, within the next five years.

 

[suupah]

You Colganites keep up this anti-union crap, and ya'll will get stapled when the time comes.

And it will be the red stapler from Office Space that will get the job done.

A staple, no fences, no furlough protection.

this is a joke right?

 

[Smarta$$]

I just want to say that not having ALPA has compelled CJC management to do almost nothing good for you guys over the last year.

It may take alittle time, because of the way management negotiates and because of the current administration, but eventually you WILL get a raise and big QOL improvements with an ALPA contract. It will far exceed the 2% fee. Not even to mention all of the other protections and behind the scenes stuff ALPA does. It is exactly what management does not want you to do, for a good reason. They don't want you to have a say in your future.

Also, as you look around this industry, many of you will be a CJC ALLOT longer than you thought.

 

[LanceAir]

A lot of us thought we were going to grind it out at CJC for a couple years, then move on...guilty as charged.

If we are stuck at this place we should work to make it better, and that starts by electing the right union for the task.

 

[suupah]

I just want to say that not having ALPA has compelled CJC management to do almost nothing good for you guys over the last year.

It may take alittle time, because of the way management negotiates and because of the current administration, but eventually you WILL get a raise and big QOL improvements with an ALPA contract. It will far exceed the 2% fee. Not even to mention all of the other protections and behind the scenes stuff ALPA does. It is exactly what management does not want you to do, for a good reason. They don't want you to have a say in your future.

Also, as you look around this industry, many of you will be a CJC ALLOT longer than you thought.

to their credit some things have improved ie paid parking at home base, uniform allowance and believe it or not i think the hotel situation has gotten a little bit better.

that being said, a union is about so much more than that. It is about the entire industry, the profession itself and also a measure of protection of all the hard work and money we have invested in this career with non-transferable skills.

These are things that we need to do for our profession and for our career in its totality that have little to do with Colgan error.

 

[sinkrate]

This is a joke right?

I don’t know if he is joking but he is certainly wrong. What happens when two pilot groups merge depends on whom, or who doesn’t represent them.

-If both pilot groups are ALPA properties, ALPA merger policy will apply. That policy essentially states the merged seniority list will be fair and do the least harm to each individual pilot. The two groups will negotiate with each other to reach that end. If they cannot reach an agreement they will use binding Arbitration. An example of how this was done successfully is NWA/Republic in the 80’s and NWA/Delta now. The key aspect of this process is the larger group cannot use its numbers to take advantage of the smaller group.

-If one pilot group is unionized and one isn’t Federal law requires the use of the ‘Allegheny-Mohawk’ process for the merger. This refers to the process used prior to airline deregulation in the 70’s. In those years the Civil Aeronautics Board determined how the merger would be done. If one of the pilot groups is relatively small compared to the other it will simply be absorbed (stapled) to the other.

-If the two pilot groups are represented by different unions the short answer is the larger of the two, if big enough, will write the rules however it wants. The process to get there is complicated/convoluted but that will be the end result. Examples of this are AMR/TWA and AMR/Reno.

This is why USAir left ALPA. When USAir and America West merged both were represented by ALPA. Although USAir was much larger than America West they were weeks from shutting down and liquidating. The USAir pilots negotiated for seniority list integration based strictly on ‘date of hire’. This would have richly rewarded the USAir pilots at the expense of the America West pilots. The Arbitrator ruled against them and imposed his own method of senioity list integration. The USAir pilots then left ALPA and formed their own in house union in an attempt to circumvent the arbitrator’s award. It was a legally binding award and it will be many years and dollars before they know if the attempt is successful. On a side note NetJets just voted to boot the Teamsters out as did the UPS pilots some time ago. FedEx left ALPA – and came back.

In any large group of people (Pinnacle is over 1200 pilots) there will be all sorts of radicals. They are usually the most vocal and loudest members of the group. The vast majority of Pinnacle pilots harbor no ill will towards any individual Colgan pilot. That same majority though clearly understands that collectively, Colgan is a very serious threat to their job security and their families well being. Any threats of that nature are taken seriously and usually emotionally by most people. If there is a merger, in the end, that big silent majority will do the pragmatic, and the fair thing, to do. The reward for circumventing ALPA policy is no where near what it is for USAir pilots, and the risks for the Pinnacle pilots are great.

One last aspect of mergers that everyone seems to forget is management must agree to the new list also. Their requirements can be summed up fairly easily. They will not want to pay the costs of ‘seat swapping’. Management will bargain very hard to maintain the ‘status quo’ – everyone stays in their current seat/equipment/domicile with no ‘bumping’ or displacing. The discussions between the two pilot groups will essentially be over bidding rights to future vacancies.

 

[LanceAir]

I don’t know if he is joking but he is certainly wrong. What happens when two pilot groups merge depends on whom, or who doesn’t represent them.

-If both pilot groups are ALPA properties, ALPA merger policy will apply. That policy essentially states the merged seniority list will be fair and do the least harm to each individual pilot. The two groups will negotiate with each other to reach that end. If they cannot reach an agreement they will use binding Arbitration. An example of how this was done successfully is NWA/Republic in the 80’s and NWA/Delta now. The key aspect of this process is the larger group cannot use its numbers to take advantage of the smaller group.

-If one pilot group is unionized and one isn’t Federal law requires the use of the ‘Allegheny-Mohawk’ process for the merger. This refers to the process used prior to airline deregulation in the 70’s. In those years the Civil Aeronautics Board determined how the merger would be done. If one of the pilot groups is relatively small compared to the other it will simply be absorbed (stapled) to the other.

-If the two pilot groups are represented by different unions the short answer is the larger of the two, if big enough, will write the rules however it wants. The process to get there is complicated/convoluted but that will be the end result. Examples of this are AMR/TWA and AMR/Reno.

This is why USAir left ALPA. When USAir and America West merged both were represented by ALPA. Although USAir was much larger than America West they were weeks from shutting down and liquidating. The USAir pilots negotiated for seniority list integration based strictly on ‘date of hire’. This would have richly rewarded the USAir pilots at the expense of the America West pilots. The Arbitrator ruled against them and imposed his own method of senioity list integration. The USAir pilots then left ALPA and formed their own in house union in an attempt to circumvent the arbitrator’s award. It was a legally binding award and it will be many years and dollars before they know if the attempt is successful. On a side note NetJets just voted to boot the Teamsters out as did the UPS pilots some time ago. FedEx left ALPA – and came back.

In any large group of people (Pinnacle is over 1200 pilots) there will be all sorts of radicals. They are usually the most vocal and loudest members of the group. The vast majority of Pinnacle pilots harbor no ill will towards any individual Colgan pilot. That same majority though clearly understands that collectively, Colgan is a very serious threat to their job security and their families well being. Any threats of that nature are taken seriously and usually emotionally by most people. If there is a merger, in the end, that big silent majority will do the pragmatic, and the fair thing, to do. The reward for circumventing ALPA policy is no where near what it is for USAir pilots, and the risks for the Pinnacle pilots are great.

One last aspect of mergers that everyone seems to forget is management must agree to the new list also. Their requirements can be summed up fairly easily. They will not want to pay the costs of ‘seat swapping’. Management will bargain very hard to maintain the ‘status quo’ – everyone stays in their current seat/equipment/domicile with no ‘bumping’ or displacing. The discussions between the two pilot groups will essentially be over bidding rights to future vacancies.

very well said, I think your post deserves 1st page status.

 

[GEORGE DUBYA]

Okay so what will a list merger look like? Are we going to be stapled on the bottom? Also I see teamsters and alpa are vocal again. Can we have both competing for us at the same time?

 

[PCL_128]

playinskys, is that you, HelloNewWoman? No, I guess not. HelloNewman actually had better arguments (and that's a pretty sad indictment of you).

Colgan needs a union, but ALPA isn't for us. Pinnacle has ALPA. What have they done for them?

A lot, actually. Saved the jobs of countless pilots that management tried to get rid of, won countless grievances, stopped pay cuts that management wanted on multiple occasions, etc... PCL ALPA has been quite effective.

Also how does it feel that your ALPA dues bought tens of thousands of dollars worth of Potbelly sandwiches, TGI Friday's food, Legal Seafood in BOS, and whatever you want to eat in LGA in order to buy your support. Heck it could be more in the six figures it went on for months!! Why did they buy all of this, kindness or an investment?

We bought all of it in an effort to encourage you to come listen to what we had to say. Most pilots are so self-involved and uneducated that they won't even bother to listen to someone until they think they can get something for nothing out of it. Ergo, free food. I'm guessing you didn't stop by and get an education.

Why does your 2% dues come off of your gross? So the more I work the more money ALPA needs!! They must be strapped for cash, how much do their employees make? Alot more then most of us. Teamster dues are 1.5 % off of your monthly guarantee.

As someone else said, you get what you pay for.

Think about it !!!!!! Vote Teamsters

Yes, if you're a professional truck driver, then by all means, vote for the Teamsters. But if you're an air line pilot and want competent representation that knows how to represent air line pilots, then vote for the pilots union: ALPA. Anything less is suicide going up against Noncaring Blvd.

 

[Nevets]

I just want to say that not having ALPA has compelled CJC management to do almost nothing good for you guys over the last year.

It may take alittle time, because of the way management negotiates and because of the current administration, but eventually you WILL get a raise and big QOL improvements with an ALPA contract. It will far exceed the 2% fee. Not even to mention all of the other protections and behind the scenes stuff ALPA does. It is exactly what management does not want you to do, for a good reason. They don't want you to have a say in your future.

Also, as you look around this industry, many of you will be a CJC ALLOT longer than you thought.

Just by virtue of voting in a union and thus going into status quo until a CBA is agreed to, would be better than what Colgan pilots have now.

 

[suupah]

Okay so what will a list merger look like? Are we going to be stapled on the bottom? Also I see teamsters and alpa are vocal again. Can we have both competing for us at the same time?

teamsta's will buy miki D's and ALPA will spring for wok n' roll.

 

[Nevets]

I don’t know if he is joking but he is certainly wrong. What happens when two pilot groups merge depends on whom, or who doesn’t represent them.

-If both pilot groups are ALPA properties, ALPA merger policy will apply. That policy essentially states the merged seniority list will be fair and do the least harm to each individual pilot. The two groups will negotiate with each other to reach that end. If they cannot reach an agreement they will use binding Arbitration. An example of how this was done successfully is NWA/Republic in the 80’s and NWA/Delta now. The key aspect of this process is the larger group cannot use its numbers to take advantage of the smaller group.

-If one pilot group is unionized and one isn’t Federal law requires the use of the ‘Allegheny-Mohawk’ process for the merger. This refers to the process used prior to airline deregulation in the 70’s. In those years the Civil Aeronautics Board determined how the merger would be done. If one of the pilot groups is relatively small compared to the other it will simply be absorbed (stapled) to the other.

-If the two pilot groups are represented by different unions the short answer is the larger of the two, if big enough, will write the rules however it wants. The process to get there is complicated/convoluted but that will be the end result. Examples of this are AMR/TWA and AMR/Reno.

Actually, if you have a merger of pilot groups represented by different unions, then Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protection Provisions 3 and 13 apply. It essentially says that you must have a "fair and equitable" merger and if there is disagreement you do to mediation and ultimately binding arbitration. The negotiations would be between the two unions.

If the merger is of one union pilot group and another non-union group, the same as above applies except that management would represent the non-union group in negotiations.

If two ALPA groups merge, they can mutually agree to their own negotiation rules or they can use ALPA merger policy which is essentially the same as Allegheny-Mohawk. Meaning that it has to be fair and equitable but also keeping in mind the following goals, in no particular order:
a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations

ALPA Merger And Fragmentation Policy
http://www.skywestalpa.org/documents/ALPA_Merger_Fragmentation_Policy.pdf

In none of the instances is a staple job the final outcome unless the two groups agree that that is in fact "fair and equitable."


References

Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2008
SEC. 117. LABOR INTEGRATION. (a) LABOR INTEGRATION- With respect to any covered transaction involving two or more covered air carriers that results in the combination of crafts or classes that are subject to the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. 151 et seq.), sections 3 and 13 of the labor protective provisions imposed by the Civil Aeronautics Board in the Allegheny-Mohawk merger (as published at 59 C.A.B. 45) shall apply to the integration of covered employees of the covered air carriers; except that--

• (1) if the same collective bargaining agent represents the combining crafts or classes at each of the covered air carriers, that collective bargaining agent's internal policies regarding integration, if any, will not be affected by and will supersede the requirements of this section; and
  (2) the requirements of any collective bargaining agreement that may be applicable to the terms of integration involving covered employees of a covered air carrier shall not be affected by the requirements of this section as to the employees covered by that agreement, so long as those provisions allow for the protections afforded by sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-Mohawk provisions.

(b) DEFINITIONS- In this section, the following definitions apply:

• (1) AIR CARRIER- The term `air carrier' means an air carrier that holds a certificate issued under chapter 411 of title 49, United States Code.
  (2) COVERED AIR CARRIER- The term `covered air carrier' means an air carrier that is involved in a covered transaction.
  (3) COVERED EMPLOYEE- The term `covered employee' means an employee who--
  • (A) is not a temporary employee; and
    (B) is a member of a craft or class that is subject to the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. 151 et seq.).
  (4) COVERED TRANSACTION- The term `covered transaction' means--
  • (A) a transaction for the combination of multiple air carriers into a single air carrier; and which
    (B) involves the transfer of ownership or control of--
    • (i) 50 percent or more of the equity securities (as defined in section 101 of title 11, United States Code) of an air carrier; or
      (ii) 50 percent or more (by value) of the assets of the air carrier.

(c) APPLICATION- This section shall not apply to any covered transaction involving a covered air carrier that took place before the date of enactment of this Act.
(d) EFFECTIVENESS OF PROVISION- This section shall become effective on the date of enactment of this Act and shall continue in effect in fiscal years after fiscal year 2008.
http://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c110:8:./temp/~c110JBN0k9:e685:

Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protection Provisions Section 3 & 13
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]Section 3. Insofar as the merger affects the seniority rights of the carriers employees, provisions shall be made for the integration of seniority lists in a fair and equitable manner, including, where applicable, agreement through collective bargaining between the carriers and the representatives of the employees affected. In the event of failure to agree, the dispute may be submitted by either party for adjustment in accordance with section 13.

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]Section 13. (a) In the event that any dispute or controversy (except as to matters arising under section 9) arises with respect to the protections provided herein which cannot be settle by the parties within 20 days after the controversy arises, it may be referred by any party to an arbitrator selected from a panel of seven names furnished by the National Mediation Board for consideration and determination. The parties shall select the arbitrator from such panel by alternatively striking names until only one remains, and he shall serve as arbitrator. Expedited hearings and decisions will be expected, and a decision shall be rendered within 90 days after the controversy arises, unless an extension of time it is mutually agreeable to all parties. The salary and expenses of the arbitrator shall be borne equally by the carrier and (i) the organization or organizations representing employee or employees or (ii) if unrepresented, the employee or employees or group or groups of employees. The decision of the arbitrator shall be final and binding on the parties.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica](b.) The above condition shall not apply if the parties by mutual agreement determine that an alternative method for dispute settlement or an alternative procedure for selection of an arbitrator is appropriate in their particular dispute. No party shall be excused from complying with the above condition by reason of having suggested an alternative method or procedure unless and until that alternative method or procedure shall have been agreed to by all parties.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
http://www.nwaflightattendants.com/Allegheny Mohawk LPPs.htm
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[redflyer65]

US Air has never merged/acquired any other carrier successfully.......EVER.

 

[suupah]

Actually, if you have a merger of pilot groups represented by different unions, then Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protection Provisions 3 and 13 apply.

Thanks for that. A staple is extremely unlikely whether we are represented by either union