Colgan PFT

[Batfish]

Before I start, I didn't do it so don't get mad at me I got some inside info the other day that Colgan is trying to do PFT for the right seat in the 1900. Not a trainging bond or contract just bend over and pay $18,000 yes $18,000 for your 1900d training. Ouch that one feels like a swift kick to the groin to all of the desperate pilots out there that really want to move on with their careers. If they actually do it I guess you can put them in the Gulfstream, Air Vegas pile. Thought the word should be heard. Batfish

 

[chperplt]

You got some inside news huh... Your inside news has been public information for a week now. Do a search next time to see if the word has already been heard.

And it's the Saab.. Not the 1900

 

[chperplt]

I would think you could buy a type for less than that. I don't know the true cost, but someone told me today that the price is 16K for the training, and another 2700 if you want the type. Again, I don't know it this is accurate or not.

 

[mckpickle]

Dispicable. Are you guys thinking about unionizing at all?

 

[chperplt]

It's been talked about at times over the past couple years. Nothing has ever come of it.

 

[KATL8R26L]

program

Well here is how the pricing went.

First RAA in Deland Florida was offiered the program at $16,000.00

Then another flight school at the sanford airport offiered it to their instructors for $18,000.00

Then that same flight school at sanford offiered to the student's for $24,000.00.............. man talk about bending over your student base and putting it to them,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[WhiteCloud]

I got some inside info the other day that Colgan is trying to do PFT for the right seat in the 1900. Not a trainging bond or contract just bend over and pay $18,000 yes $18,000 for your 1900d training. Ouch that one feels like a swift kick to the groin to all of the desperate pilots out there that really want to move on with their careers.

Anybody that pays that kind of money for that job is a fool.

 

[LearLove]

"Dispicable. Are you guys thinking about unionizing at all?"

Please correct me if I'm wrong but a union would have little or nothing to do with wheather the company want new hires to PFT or not.

The only example that I know of where a union was involved in PFT was years back at Allegheny (and it may have been prior to the Penn/Suburban merger on the Suburban side) that the company asked the pilots to vote on it (PFT) and they said no.

Another piont is that I guess a union could negotiate that in a contract that they don't want PFT but like in any contract negotiation you have to give something to get something. So the pilot group would have to give something up like pay or work rules to get no PFT. I think this is highly unlikely that a pilot group would give anything up in their contract to someone thats not even hired there yet, know what I mean jelly bean.


Its very unfortunate that PFT is reeling it ugly head again but don't point a finger at the existing pilot group, they really have no say in what management does in ref. to hiring.

 

[cargoflyr69]

PFT is NOT the way to go. If someone really wants to fly that bad then they ought wait it out and pay their dues like the rest of us. By going the PFT route they are really selling themselves short and lining the pockets of someone else. They should ask themselves, "what do I get in return?" A uniform. Ha, thats one expensive piece of polyester!

My suggestion for somebody thinking of PFT is Keep flight instructing til you have 135 mimimums and then fly checks or boxes around for 6-8 months. Believe it or not, there are many reputable 135 operations out there hiring pilots. Remember that 135 minimums have no multi engine hour requirements.

In the long run you will thank yourself for and be proud of that airline job you earned. You will also be a much more competent and confident pilot than the kid that just graduated UND and can't think on their own in the cockpit. Belive me, HR departments know this too. Being a freight dog was the best thing I've done in my career!

 

[mckpickle]

"Dispicable. Are you guys thinking about unionizing at all?"

Please correct me if I'm wrong but a union would have little or nothing to do with wheather the company want new hires to PFT or not.

The only example that I know of where a union was involved in PFT was years back at Allegheny (and it may have been prior to the Penn/Suburban merger on the Suburban side) that the company asked the pilots to vote on it (PFT) and they said no.

Another piont is that I guess a union could negotiate that in a contract that they don't want PFT but like in any contract negotiation you have to give something to get something. So the pilot group would have to give something up like pay or work rules to get no PFT. I think this is highly unlikely that a pilot group would give anything up in their contract to someone thats not even hired there yet, know what I mean jelly bean.


Its very unfortunate that PFT is reeling it ugly head again but don't point a finger at the existing pilot group, they really have no say in what management does in ref. to hiring.

I see what your saying about giving something up. Heck it might even be a way for all the Captains to get extra pay for being checkairmen! But the pilot group can stop it if they really wanted. At COEX we will have it in our new contract that the company can not "charge" for training.

 

[210FR8DOG]

PFT-bad

That really sucks. I will keep flying my piston popper forever before I will pay that kind of money for a job that barely pays that amount back in the first year. I sure hope this disease doesn't continue to spread.

Chpr- I'm curious, you said for the 340, not 1900. Does this mean you don't pay for 1900 training at all? If so, everyone that comes through there should demand to fly the 1900 and if offered the SAAB at the bargain rate of 16k or whatever, they should simply refuse. "Thanks anyway but I will be needing some food in the upcoming year!!"

Cargoflyr69- I just gotta know, what happens after the 6-8 months of 135 flying? I've been here at Fright Express for 18 months and there is no glimmer of hope for any turbo-prop or jet propulsion in my near future. As mentioned above, I WILL NOT PAY FOR TRAINING. I guess maybe I will fly this piston forever. You're right though, we are hiring. As many as 1 to 2 pilots a month!!!!!

Fly safe and remember boys and girls, NO PFT!!!!

 

[windsock]

PFT

I'm so sick of trying to get twin time. Without it nothing is ever going to happen in the dream career.

You can't rent or flight instruct in one unless you have 100 hours in make and model if then due to insurance.

Can't get hired unless you have 200+ hours multi.

Everyone gets mad if you pay for it. Oh, just wait it will happen is just getting old. Maybe if your 20-25 years old you can wait.

I've waited flight instructed 1700 hrs taught 37 people to fly. Paid my dues, have my ATP and have only been able to beg 130 hours of twin time in my region there just isn't any twins around.

Even the 135 operators can't put you on with only 130 hours twin insurance companies just won't agree in a two person crew. If you don't know someone that just wants to help. what choice is there. I can't believe giving up flying is the answer.

I'm done. Buying the job and moving on with the dream. Hope wanting it that bad and really trying to pay the dues will ease the dislike of me for just giving in.

Don't even think Daddy's buying it and the few I know that are going to do it also have tried the old way.

 

[chperplt]

Chpr- I'm curious, you said for the 340, not 1900. Does this mean you don't pay for 1900 training at all? If so, everyone that comes through there should demand to fly the 1900 and if offered the SAAB at the bargain rate of 16k or whatever, they should simply refuse. "Thanks anyway but I will be needing some food in the upcoming year!!"

What I meant to say was that the PFT is on the Saab as we are hiring into the Saab.. I'm sure when we hire for the Beech, it will be PFT as well.

 

[WhiteCloud]

What I meant to say was that the PFT is on the Saab as we are hiring into the Saab.. I'm sure when we hire for the Beech, it will be PFT as well.

That's a pretty steep bribe to get hired on. Are any pilots actually paying it?

 

[chperplt]

Class of 8 going through now

 

[WhiteCloud]

Class of 8 going through now

So how much did these guys pay?

 

[TriDriver]

Class of 8 going through now

Chperplt

I just heard that Colgan was going to start PFT, and it's really sad that is happening.

However, I also heard that they had hired some furlouhees from other airlines, and they didn't work out (either were disgruntled working for Colgan, or left after a short while). I heard that experience cost Colgan some $280,000. Colgan apparently is not getting any of the gubmint bailout money some other airlines are getting, so that is the reason they are going PFT.

I hate to see it happen, but I bet it's not the last place that will do it. As I understand it, the trainees can get a type rating, so they are getting something for their money besides just a job. Any F/O that is typed in the plane should hopefully be able to hold their own when they hit the line, and I hope you Colgan captains will not have to do a bunch of instructing or solo flying. I also hope you won't hold it against them for doing PFT. It looks like it's the price you have to pay these days to get the next level of experience to move ahead in the industry.

Like Windsock said earlier in this thread, he's got 2400 TT, 1700 CFI with 37 students, and only 130 ME. He's been doing the "dues paying" thing, and it's not working. Unfortunately, the PFT thing may be what it takes to get the career going. I wish him luck. I bet he'll make a good F/O for Colgan.

Chperplt, can you confirm that Colgan has spent a lot training furloughees that did not work out? Is it true they don't get any of the gov't funds for airlines?

TriDriver Bob

 

[BRA]

I can confirm they have spent some amount of money on people that have left in under a year. Is it 280K? I don't know. In ground school they said they just want to get 2 years out of you, and then feel free to move on, they expect that you will. They make you sign for one year. I guess not too many people pay them back if they leave early. I think many leave here bitter. They pride themselves with sticking the company by not paying the contract. They must hire the low time gulfstream people because they can't just leave early as easy with only 600TT. If all the other regionals were hiring.........this place would be losing people left and right. I would say at least 2/3 of the people here want out badly. Honestly. And with no majors hiring the quick upgrade and PIC time that come with that are not a reason to stay here and deal with it. If they made the condtions better, the pay better, people would stay. The #1 thing they care about here is completion factor. Remember that: completion factor. It may come back to haunt the company some day. They will live or die by completion factor.

 

[English]

I think the training cost problems started when I went through class there. Of the new hires in my class on the Saab, they fired all except one. This was a couple of days before everyone's checkrides, so they had already paid for everything through the sims. They typed me then furloughed me two weeks later, after 9/11. So, I can understand how they went through alot of their training budget with nothing to show for it during just that time alone.

 

[aewanabe]

Windsock:
Sorry, I might not despise you personally but what you're doing is despicable. Don't go "buy the dream" for the chance to earn 16k a year and wear polyester. If you really thought after 9/11 it was realistic to go from a part 61 school with no ME flying to a decent regional, you were smoking something. There are other alternatives. Try some 135 freight operator who operates piston twins. Network. Go to a bigger flight school where you can use your MEI. Do NOT shell out 18k for a job and then tell everyone you are a "professional". Pilots who do that s***t are the reason management and and the general public think we are whores, and treat us like it.

BTW, WTF is Colgan charging 18K for the training? I just finished IOE with a carrier that requires a training contract for the ERJ, and it was 10K over 2 years. Is the SAAB that much more expensive to train? PS don't go crowing about the fact you can get a type rating. BFD, where are you going to use it if you leave Colgan? Eagle, Mesaba, maybe Shuttle? I don't think any of those are hiring too much lately.

End of soapbox. Good luck in life, try not to make a decision that will cheapen yourself and the profession.

 

[MMO 0.705]

I heard that the class of 8 was from the regional airline academy or one of those places where you pay for "airline training" and then colgan hired them. They had an add on AEPS a week ago and it said class of 8 for Colgan. Not sure though.

 

[chperplt]

TriDriver

Yes, they have spent an enormous amount of money on training folks that have left very soon after getting on line. 4 or 5 of them were Mainline furloughs that were not happy flying a 1900 around. I've spoken to a few of them while they were here and that is what they said. We hired 4 CC Air pilots that were recalled only a few months after getting hired.

They did get money from the initial bailout, although it wasn't very much. I don't think it completely covered the lost revenue from the forced grounding.

As I've said before, I do not like the idea of PFT. I feel the same way many of the other posters do. But, I can also understand from the companies point of view why they would do so. If it's purely a dollar and sense thing, maybe a better way would be to take the money and put it in a zero yield account which would be returned to the pilot once they complete the 12 month training agreement. Rather than having to go after the people who bail, the company could simply refund the prorated portion of the contract if/when they bail early.

Those that PFT will do so regardless of what other people think.. and they should. You need to do what is right for you. Just make sure you are aware of what you are getting yourself into, and make sure you are the best. You're going to need to be better than the rest and hold your own in that seat. As a Captain, I'll be more than happy to help you out with line specific items, and I'll give you all the help I can while you're learning the airplane, but I won't teach you how to fly. If you can't get yourself into a hold, or fly an approach to minimums, you're going to have a problem. Like I said, you're going to have to be the best.

 

[tittyjet]

PFT at COLGAN?!?!? I would have just about paid anything to get out of that dump when I worked there. What a joke....it didn't suprise me a bit when I heard it from one of my friends that's still there. The whole mgmt lot of them (with the exception of Mikee) are a bunch of dirtbags.

Here are a few of the latest jewels out of the chief pilots office that may amuse the rest of you:

1. They sent out an Ops Bulletin a couple of months ago stating that no one was todrink anything but bottled water in the cockpit. Not even coffee with a lid on it! Pilots who work 16 hour duty days, flying 7.8 to 7.9 not allowed to have a f*&^ing Coke or EVEN coffee.

2. They also sent out a memo (I'm sure this was courtesy of the Ice Queen) stating that flying hats were no longer to be worn in the cockpit even with the door closed....."it looks unprofessional." Hey, here's a news flash, Ed*n, look at the FO on the cover of last months ALPA magazine. Hat on! He might look unprofessional, but at least he drives a 757 instead of a stretch King Air ( no offense meant to 1900 drivers other than the Chief Pilot and his Assistant C.P.


That whole place is ass-backwards. The only qualification that one has to have to get a job there in senior management is to have, or have had, the last name Colgan.

Here's some advice to those of you who are still there: you are now over the 200 pilot mark. ALPA will now look at you. The guys name to speak with at ALPA is Ron Reinfelsch (sp). I spoke with him several years ago about getting something going before I got my ass out of there. He was receptive to the idea. There are several who are still there who are willing to help, but approach only those who you KNOW you can trust.

As for the old man, he says that if the union comes on the property that he'll shut the place down. He can't do that. If he does, he'll put too many in the family out of work; the place is a family jobs program for the inept. I can name AT LEAST seven of them who are drawing a paycheck out of that place. Not to mention his aircraft lease agreements and service agreements with US Airways.

As for the PFT, it's an unfortunate part of the biz, but it speaks volumes that that is the only way that they can assure that people feel like they have to stay -- pretty sad, really. If they treated people like humans over there, then maybe their morale and, therefore, employee retention would improve.

For all of you who are still there, keep the faith. Those on the outside know what you've been through and are thinking about you.

 

[chperplt]

tittyjet

Come on now....it's not that bad here.

 

[tittyjet]

chperplt,

"It's not that bad here." You need to stay off the weed, my friend.

 

[chperplt]

Titty

I guess you didn't see the little "wink" there.....

 

[WhiteCloud]

As for the PFT, it's an unfortunate part of the biz, but it speaks volumes that that is the only way that they can assure that people feel like they have to stay -- pretty sad, really. If they treated people like humans over there, then maybe their morale and, therefore, employee retention would improve.

It's one thing to lose pilots if they move on to a major but Colgan loses everybody to other Beech 1900 or Saab 340 jobs or other parallel equipment moves. They also lose a certain number that just quit to get out and line something up later. That's pathetic. These clowns that are paying to work there are making a mistake.

 

[tittyjet]

No, I did. just giving you some good-natured sheeot!!

Seriously, though someone in the pilot group there needs to grow some nads and get the ALPA train rolling. Me and a couple of other guys were about to drop the ALPA hammer a while back.

 

[tittyjet]

Ziggy1:

Amen about the folks going to other 1900 and Saab operators. That speaks volumes in itself. Although I don't quite know how I feel about PFT, I do know that I would advise anyone and everyone not to PFT with that bunch of dirtbag-scum clowns.

BTW, I'm referring to mgmt, not the pilot group.

 

[LearLove]

"Seriously, though someone in the pilot group there needs to grow some nads and get the ALPA train rolling"

Yeah because ALPA does so much for cummuter airlines and their pilots. Go ahead DW and the mainline guys need your 2% so they can finance their MEC meetings/parties on a yatch in Miami.