Colgan Contract

[Sam Snead]

"Sam,

I've read this post of yours 3 or 4 times now, and I'm still not seeing what is unsafe about the planned flight. You're not being asked to violate any company regs, aircraft limits, or FARs. As an ATP, you should be able to handle winds and weather up to the aircrafts limitations.

In this specific case, where was your dispatcher 50% irresponsible? You're flying in the North Eastern United States with some pretty bad weather. Day or night, windy or calm, you should have the skills to fly an airplane within it's limits and get to and from Boston safely."

Exactly. Maybe he should be flying something with autopilot in a fantasy land with clear skies, calm winds and 12,000 foot runways everywhere. As BRA said, strap on that Beech and ride into the sunset there, Sam.

Your sarcasm is uncalled for.

BTW, tell me.... what is the total component limitation on the 1900, based on the POH - THERE IS NONE. Don't tell me to fly the plane to it's POH limit no matter what. Please, for the brave souls that venture on to your 1900, if not for yourself, keep some MARGIN OF SAFETY.

"Get to and from Boston safely" - Perhaps to you that means if nothing goes wrong. IT DOESN'T.

You people are way better pilots than I am. I'm too concerned about LLWS and stuff like that. The 1900 is too light in my opinion for operating safely in a noreaster as mentioned.

"You should be able to handle XXXX" Ok..... so you would fly in any weather as long as it's "legal" - at some point your judgement has got to come into play, and that was my previous point.

You shouldn't be "riding the edge" with other people on the plane that depend on you. If you want to "ride the edge" go up by yourself. Don't take my family with you.

I am a wimp. I wasn't when I was 17 and a private pilot, but I am at 31.

You know, it saddens me that my family may be flying on your airplane. The only good news is that after you get hired at a bigger outfit, you'll be an FO and you won't get to make command decisions for a few years, at least.

No sarcasm included.

 

[BRA]

Your sarcasm is uncalled for.

BTW, tell me.... what is the total component limitation on the 1900, based on the POH - THERE IS NONE. Don't tell me to fly the plane to it's POH limit no matter what. Please, for the brave souls that venture on to your 1900, if not for yourself, keep some MARGIN OF SAFETY.

"Get to and from Boston safely" - Perhaps to you that means if nothing goes wrong. IT DOESN'T.

You people are way better pilots than I am. I'm too concerned about LLWS and stuff like that. The 1900 is too light in my opinion for operating safely in a noreaster as mentioned.

"You should be able to handle XXXX" Ok..... so you would fly in any weather as long as it's "legal" - at some point your judgement has got to come into play, and that was my previous point.

You shouldn't be "riding the edge" with other people on the plane that depend on you. If you want to "ride the edge" go up by yourself. Don't take my family with you.

I am a wimp. I wasn't when I was 17 and a private pilot, but I am at 31.

You know, it saddens me that my family may be flying on your airplane. The only good news is that after you get hired at a bigger outfit, you'll be an FO and you won't get to make command decisions for a few years, at least.

No sarcasm included.

I have always heard every other colgan interview group has that one dude that isn't wearing cowboy boots, and doesn't have a mouth full of scoal......that somehow slips past the goalie.

 

[chperplt]

Your sarcasm is uncalled for.

BTW, tell me.... what is the total component limitation on the 1900, based on the POH - THERE IS NONE. Don't tell me to fly the plane to it's POH limit no matter what. Please, for the brave souls that venture on to your 1900, if not for yourself, keep some MARGIN OF SAFETY.

"Get to and from Boston safely" - Perhaps to you that means if nothing goes wrong. IT DOESN'T.

You people are way better pilots than I am. I'm too concerned about LLWS and stuff like that. The 1900 is too light in my opinion for operating safely in a noreaster as mentioned.

"You should be able to handle XXXX" Ok..... so you would fly in any weather as long as it's "legal" - at some point your judgement has got to come into play, and that was my previous point.

You shouldn't be "riding the edge" with other people on the plane that depend on you. If you want to "ride the edge" go up by yourself. Don't take my family with you.

I am a wimp. I wasn't when I was 17 and a private pilot, but I am at 31.

You know, it saddens me that my family may be flying on your airplane. The only good news is that after you get hired at a bigger outfit, you'll be an FO and you won't get to make command decisions for a few years, at least.

No sarcasm included.

Dude,

You feel that a 40 knot headwind is too strong for a Beech 1900. It seems that it's your skills that are lacking the ability to land the aircraft safely in those conditions.

"Get to and from Boston safely" - Perhaps to you that means if nothing goes wrong. IT DOESN'T.

I spent a few years flying those piece of crap airplanes around. The fact that they are crap has nothing to do with landing in a 40 knot headwind. As long as you can comply with all MELs, the airplane is airworthy and lands the same either way.

"You should be able to handle XXXX" Ok..... so you would fly in any weather as long as it's "legal" - at some point your judgement has got to come into play, and that was my previous point.

You're missing the point stud. It's not our judgment that's at issue here. It's your judgement that's being called into question. What you are doing is not being safe as you would call it. You are a fair weather pilot (nothing wrong with that), but don't belong in the left seat of a passenger carrying aircraft flying in the North Eastern U.S.

You shouldn't be "riding the edge" with other people on the plane that depend on you. If you want to "ride the edge" go up by yourself. Don't take my family with you.

Again, landing a 17000 pound airplane (or a little Cessna for that matter) in a 40 knot headwind is not "riding the edge" as you call it. I really think you don't have much faith in your skills and you're using the "safety" tag as your excuse to stay on the ground.

As crappy as working for the Colgans can be, we always had our skills and abilities to be proud of as a pilot group. If you don't even have that, you might as well throw in the towel and sell cars or something else "safer."

 

[dh82dvr]

I always liked strapping on the one with nose wheel steering MEL'ed and going to SYR in January...........Giddyup!!!

 

[chperplt]

I always liked strapping on the one with nose wheel steering MEL'ed and going to SYR in January...........Giddyup!!!

That was always fun!!!

How's the new gig going??

 

[Sam Snead]

Dude,

You feel that a 40 knot headwind is too strong for a Beech 1900. It seems that it's your skills that are lacking the ability to land the aircraft safely in those conditions.



I spent a few years flying those piece of crap airplanes around. The fact that they are crap has nothing to do with landing in a 40 knot headwind. As long as you can comply with all MELs, the airplane is airworthy and lands the same either way.



You're missing the point stud. It's not our judgment that's at issue here. It's your judgement that's being called into question. What you are doing is not being safe as you would call it. You are a fair weather pilot (nothing wrong with that), but don't belong in the left seat of a passenger carrying aircraft flying in the North Eastern U.S.



Again, landing a 17000 pound airplane (or a little Cessna for that matter) in a 40 knot headwind is not "riding the edge" as you call it. I really think you don't have much faith in your skills and you're using the "safety" tag as your excuse to stay on the ground.

As crappy as working for the Colgans can be, we always had our skills and abilities to be proud of as a pilot group. If you don't even have that, you might as well throw in the towel and sell cars or something else "safer."

Now you're picking a fight.... is that what you want?

Your pride about flying "anywhere, anytime" is totally misplaced. Your attitude is cavalier, and macho. Even the FAA defines that as a dangerous attitude.

Your theory? That nothing has gone wrong so far.

In perhaps 450 legs as PIC, I cancelled 1 flight because of my safety concerns. I have almost 1300 hours in the "northeast" and on "small runways" and in the "winter". I'm fine in the Northeast, chprplt. My skills are fine. My ability to handle MELs is fine.

Obviously during my time as PIC, the company, the FAA, Mainline, and my FOs trusted me or I would have been fired. I wasn't.

BTW since when did you become the arbiter of who is and isn't qualified to fly in the left seat, in a global sense. Your statement about my qualification is downright abusive.

I don't appreciate the personal attack. I find it unprofessional. You don't know me.

 

[chperplt]

BTW since when did you become the arbiter of who is and isn't qualified to fly in the left seat, in a global sense. Your statement about my qualification is downright abusive.

I don't appreciate the personal attack. I find it unprofessional. You don't know me.

My words are not a personal attack on you. You have made it clear that the typical weather conditions you operate in during the winter months make you uncomfortable. Your words not mine.

My opinion... If you can't hack a 40 knot headwind, you don't belong in the seat. There is nothing inherently dangerous about landing a Beech 1900 in a 40 knot headwind. The aircraft is more than capable of dealing with that type of wind.

 

[Sam Snead]

The weather does not make me uncomfortable. I never said that. What I said was "I am a wimp."

At least twice, you have judged who does and does not belong in "the seat". I propose that you might be overstepping your bounds.

Since when is 40 knot winds typical at the ground level, and flights are being dispatched? Actually, I'm afraid of the answer.

I only went through 2 winters in the fearsome Northeast so I haven't seen it all.

I agree... the 1900 is capable of probably much more than that. You just lose your safety margin.

I want a safety margin. Do you?

I set my DISPATCH limit at 40; I've never diverted because of too much total component. I've never diverted for a crew reason.

As an aside, I don't think I've every flown into an airport where the total component was more than 35. Ever. In 2500 hours of SCHEDULED flying. Low viz? yes. Raining/Snowing hard? Yes. Gusty? Yes. Add night to all? Yes.

Like I said, that's 2 winters' worth. Less than many 1900 vets.

 

[BSkin]

Sam, you're in the wrong business. Grow a spine. It doesn't change when you move on either. Legal is legal and you will be asked to do what's legal. Now, if it's borderline (and 40 kt hw is not) the Capt can sometimes get away with not going. Oh, four winters in AUG, PQI, HYA, PWM. Get some boots on or find yourself a desk!

 

[Sam Snead]

My words are not a personal attack on you. You have made it clear that the typical weather conditions you operate in during the winter months make you uncomfortable. Your words not mine.

My opinion... If you can't hack a 40 knot headwind, you don't belong in the seat. There is nothing inherently dangerous about landing a Beech 1900 in a 40 knot headwind. The aircraft is more than capable of dealing with that type of wind.

Nothing inherently dangerous... if the wind is steady on approach. And it's not.

 

[Sam Snead]

Sam, you're in the wrong business. Grow a spine. It doesn't change when you move on either. Legal is legal and you will be asked to do what's legal. Now, if it's borderline (and 40 kt hw is not) the Capt can sometimes get away with not going. Oh, four winters in AUG, PQI, HYA, PWM. Get some boots on or find yourself a desk!

Can you detail what's legal for you in the 717? I'd surely like to know.

Your winter experience is quite impressive; congratulations on AirTran.

What is borderline, when considering wind, in your mind?

I don't need a spine. I use my brain.

 

[Sam Snead]

Alone as I am in this present discussion, what happened to "safe"?

None of you have mentioned that as any sort of limitation. Just "legal" "legal" "legal". There are many, many, many dead people that followed every FAR. Right into the ground.

I hope no one here becomes on of them.

I would like to hear some stories about where you went (or didn't).

 

[Sam Snead]

From NTSB.gov

"a wheel-equipped deHavilland DHC-6-200 airplane, sustained substantial damage when the airplane slid off the runway during the landing roll, and its nose gear collapsed at the Toksook Bay Airport, Toksook Bay, Alaska.
In a written statement dated January 27, 2005, the pilot reported about 500 feet into the landing roll on runway 16, a gust of wind "blew us sideways." He wrote, "I could not straighten the aircraft, and we started to drift off the edge." He reported he had started to add power to initiate an aborted landing, but as he did so, he thought the airplane struck a runway light, and he reduced power and continued the landing roll. Exiting the right side of the runway the nose gear strut broke off, and the right main landing gear ran over the runway edge embankment. The airplane came to rest on the nose and right wing.

In a written statement dated January 27, the pilot reported that he believed the wind speed was about 20-25 knots."

Legal conditions.

 

[Sam Snead]

It doesn't change when you move on either. Legal is legal and you will be asked to do what's legal. !

Yes. And as quoted ad nauseum on this forum, crew planning, dispatch, etc. ask for things on occasion you should say "NO" to.

 

[BSkin]

Can you detail what's legal for you in the 717? I'd surely like to know.

Your winter experience is quite impressive; congratulations on AirTran.

What is borderline, when considering wind, in your mind?

I don't need a spine. I use my brain.

It's somewhere deep in the manual, I'll find it for the next checkride. For Autoland, 10 kt tail, 15 kt x-wind, 25 kt headwind. Engine x-wind of 40 kts or more not allowed for takeoff, and I believe this is what they use for landing.

I'm not out to bust your balls, nor am I out to fly in situations I feel are unsafe for myself or the passengers, and yes, the FOs have their input here. I'm just saying it doesn't get any easier, except for the fms and autopilot . Dispatchers everywhere go to the edge of the rules when necessary, and there's usually not much you can do about it, unless you want a visit to the CP's office. Thanks for the Congrats.

 

[Turtlesfly]

Anyways, back to the thread topic . . .

. . . sorry, you got to stay your year . . . I had to suffer the whole year until I could go somewhere better. It's like a marriage - a contract's a contract, and the company didn't cheat on you becasue you got sucky airplanes - that's us not knowing better before we got engaged.

 

[dh82dvr]

new gig is great chpr.

 

[Capn Lucky]

Wow..... I can't believe I missed this love fest.

Sam, Chper and I cancelled more than one flight because of safety soncerns and never heard a thing about it. The beech is probably the toughest airplane in the northeast and it can take almost anything except a sub-standard pilot. As for the contract issue, I have no respect for someone who signs their name and then finds a reason to wiggle out.

 

[chperplt]

The weather does not make me uncomfortable. I never said that. What I said was "I am a wimp."

The weather does not make you uncomfortable.... but you're a wimp. Sounds like a little contradiction there.

When is 40 knot winds typical at the ground level, and flights are being dispatched? Actually, I'm afraid of the answer.

If it's 40 knots on the nose, all the time....

I agree... the 1900 is capable of probably much more than that. You just lose your safety margin.

When you get the thing off the ground, you lose your safety margin. A wind @ 20 knots on the nose Vs 40 does little to your safety margin if you're a competent pilot.

I want a safety margin. Do you?

Of course I do... But what we're discussing here is not a safety issue, it's a skills issue.

As an aside, I don't think I've every flown into an airport where the total component was more than 35. Ever. In 2500 hours of SCHEDULED flying. Low viz? yes. Raining/Snowing hard? Yes. Gusty? Yes. Add night to all? Yes.

And again it comes down to your skills. You're talking about setting limits like you're a newly minted instrument pilot. You're supposed to be an airline captain capable of flying the airplane (with passengers) to it's legal limits.

 

[chperplt]

Nothing inherently dangerous... if the wind is steady on approach. And it's not.

There is nothing inherently dangerous about flying the approach with a crosswind either.... A lot of people have problems with crosswind landings. Practice a bit and the wind won't a problem in the future.

 

[YMICFI]

Defending myself

First off, thanks to chper, BRA and others for clarifying my comments and standing by me. Secondly to Sam...grow up, strap on your spurs and boots, take a mouthful of chaw and stop whining. I never operate if it is beyond what I or the aircraft can do. Not to brag, but you have to know after flying the mighty Beech a while, you know what you and the airplane can and can't do safely. This comes from experience in both seats and learning from all you fly with, each aircraft and all conditions. This isn't unsafe or illegal...just experience. I pride myself on always doing what is safe and legal. I never stretch that. I, too want to come home to my family.

Back to the contract. My word is my bond. I always stand by my word. That makes the contract binding in my opinion. You sign on the dotted line, you're in for the term of the contract. No ifs ands or buts.

 

[chperplt]

Alone as I am in this present discussion, what happened to "safe"?

None of you have mentioned that as any sort of limitation. Just "legal" "legal" "legal". There are many, many, many dead people that followed every FAR. Right into the ground.

I hope no one here becomes on of them.

I would like to hear some stories about where you went (or didn't).

Our job is full of risk. To be safe we have to try and minimize that risk. By your reasoning, to be the safest and minimize that risk the most, I'm surprised you ever get off the ground.

Let's take a look (once again) at your words. You are talking about 40 knots of wind on the nose. That's what this entire discussion is about. We're not talking about 40 knots on the nose with an MEL that may effect the flight.

In the scenario you describe (40 knots of wind on the nose), at no time would I call that flight unsafe. The approach and landing may be challenging, but as a part 121 airline captain you should be able to handle that without a problem.

For the sake of discussion, say your nose wheel steering was deferred. Then that flight would still be legal, but not necessarily safe.

 

[chperplt]

From NTSB.gov

"a wheel-equipped deHavilland DHC-6-200 airplane, sustained substantial damage when the airplane slid off the runway during the landing roll, and its nose gear collapsed at the Toksook Bay Airport, Toksook Bay, Alaska.
In a written statement dated January 27, 2005, the pilot reported about 500 feet into the landing roll on runway 16, a gust of wind "blew us sideways." He wrote, "I could not straighten the aircraft, and we started to drift off the edge." He reported he had started to add power to initiate an aborted landing, but as he did so, he thought the airplane struck a runway light, and he reduced power and continued the landing roll. Exiting the right side of the runway the nose gear strut broke off, and the right main landing gear ran over the runway edge embankment. The airplane came to rest on the nose and right wing.

In a written statement dated January 27, the pilot reported that he believed the wind speed was about 20-25 knots."

Legal conditions.

Where's the rest of the report? I can almost guarantee that the aircraft lost control because of improper pilot control input while attempting a crosswind landing.

Almost all part 121 accidents occur in legal dispatch conditions. That doesn't mean there is a correlation to a legal dispatch and an accident.

Grow a pair of balls or walk into Tom's office and turn in your ID. You owe it to your passengers to not be afraid of your own shadow when things go downhill.

 

[ReportCanoa]

Dude,

You feel that a 40 knot headwind is too strong for a Beech 1900. It seems that it's your skills that are lacking the ability to land the aircraft safely in those conditions.

As crappy as working for the Colgans can be, we always had our skills and abilities to be proud of as a pilot group. If you don't even have that, you might as well throw in the towel and sell cars or something else "safer."

Oh Jesus, another stud busting someone's chops for making a conscientious decision. The man knows his limitations. "We always had our skills"? Are you serious? Why do you give a sh1t if he didn't go? You should be proud of a colleague who didn't stand down his decision. He was genuinely concerned with the conditions, and I would much prefer him at the helm with my familiy on board, than with someone who has "skills", or rather, "skills" to show the world that he can "handle it". I'll take the brains over brawn in my cockpit any day. Sad, and truly pitiful. You'll see what I mean in a couple decades if you survive that long, Dude.

 

[chperplt]

Are you serious?

Yes and No...

I do think that anyone afraid of landing this aircraft in a 40 knot headwind doesn't belong in the seat.

You won't get very far in this career being a wimp. That doesn't mean you shouldn't stick up for your decisions, but those decisions need to be rational. Declining to take a flight in the manner described above, because the Captain is a "wimp" (his words), is not acceptable.

 

[ilinipilot]

One thing people are fogetting in this thread is that the company will not have your back in this situation, if something happens. They will sell you out to the FAA as a sacrifice. If something happens you have risked your career, for making a decsion whether it is safe or not, legal or not. You have NO recourse if you decide to go and god forbid something happens.

It also could be something as small as hitting an animal on landing (totally unrelated to the winds), the FAA has the catch-all reckless operation (or something like that). I believe that is up to the discretion of an FAA inspector, so if they don't like the conditions you went in Bye bye certificate and another airline job.

PS i dont know anything about colgan, i know a few quality people there, my comments are how I would view the situation

D

 

[-9Capt]

It's somewhere deep in the manual, I'll find it for the next checkride. For Autoland, 10 kt tail, 15 kt x-wind, 25 kt headwind. Engine x-wind of 40 kts or more not allowed for takeoff, and I believe this is what they use for landing..

Bskin,
38kts at 33ft sound familiar?

 

[chperplt]

One thing people are fogetting in this thread is that the company will not have your back in this situation, if something happens. They will sell you out to the FAA as a sacrifice. If something happens you have risked your career, for making a decsion whether it is safe or not, legal or not. You have NO recourse if you decide to go and god forbid something happens.

It also could be something as small as hitting an animal on landing (totally unrelated to the winds), the FAA has the catch-all reckless operation (or something like that). I believe that is up to the discretion of an FAA inspector, so if they don't like the conditions you went in Bye bye certificate and another airline job.

PS i dont know anything about colgan, i know a few quality people there, my comments are how I would view the situation

D

You're completely right... The company will toss you out like yesterdays McDonalds.

I mean no disrespect to Sam or his piloting abilities. He may be one of the best pilots in the world. He just seems out of his element flying that type of aircraft in that type of weather... based on his "wimp" comment.

 

[ERJFO]

Dispatchers everywhere go to the edge of the rules when necessary, and there's usually not much you can do about it, unless you want a visit to the CP's office. Thanks for the Congrats.

I don't know what the hell you are talking about here, maybe Cologan is like that but "everywhere" is not. My company is not. AirTran is not. My father is a senior CA there and has canceled a turn due to forecast LLWS in the dark and has never been to the CP's office.

It's really not that cool or macho to fly into anything and never consider saying no. To be honest with all of you I don't like fighting my 50,000 pound airplane onto the ground in a 25 kt. crosswind with 10 kt. gusts, and I sure as hell didn't like it when I flew a KingAir. It can be done, but not totally safely and when we think it's safe just because it "works out" we are setting ourselves up for a problem down the road.

Sam - you sound like a safe pilot, keep it up.

 

[Mr Wu]

First, YMICFI

<--------------------------

Second, ReportCanoa
You admit to the worst decision in aviation, so your input doesn't count (even if you can't spell the company you "work" for)

Third, Sam Snead
How does an NTSB report about a 20kt crosswind prove your point about a 40kt headwind?