Colgan 3407 Down in Buffalo

[Andy Neill]

A great deal of the CRM training that I saw involved examples of accidents, the human factors involved and the lessons learned. The benefit derived from such discussions would far outweight the offense that could be taken by family members perusing these boards. If I lost a family member in such an accident, this would be the last place I would be spending my time.

 

[joe_pilot]

Andy,

I'm willing to bet those examples you saw were based on fact, followed by some discussion and speculation. Of course we learn from mishaps, and it is OK to discuss to some degree before having all the facts.

I'm not saying he absolutely crossed a line, but discussions that involve potentially damning, though nonetheless useful information, should probably be delayed until a more credible source than "A little birdie just told me" is found.

Would you agree?

 

[Andy Neill]

No, I don't. Think how many T-Tail turboprop pilots brushed up on tail plane icing during that discussion even though it will not likely be a cause. If the discussion were put in terms like "We need to ensure our emotions take back seat to job #1 on the flight deck" would be helpful using the possibility of an intra-crew dispute as the basis for the discussion.

 

[Sig]

Two different accidents.

I wasn't very clear, was I?

 

[joe_pilot]

No, I don't. Think how many T-Tail turboprop pilots brushed up on tail plane icing during that discussion even though it will not likely be a cause. If the discussion were put in terms like "We need to ensure our emotions take back seat to job #1 on the flight deck" would be helpful using the possibility of an intra-crew dispute as the basis for the discussion.

The fact it is, there were icing conditions. That is established. Some of the scenarios discussed here and elsewhere, though speculative in nature, revolve around that fact: That there were icing conditions. Even before the real or final cause is known (if ever) we can benefit by trying to understand what caused the accident.

An unsubstantiated report of an argument between crew members serves no such purpose other than to tarnish the memory of those crew members.

Let's wait for the CVR or word from the NTSB on this one, ok?

 

[Amish RakeFight]

??? 30 degree intercepts are standard. There are a bunch of factors that will cause you to fly threw the loc. Speed of Plane at the time (if you flying at 230kts of course you might fly threw it, How late the turn is , How close you are to the FAF/GS while being vectored. But I have always found that 30 degree intercepts work fine on ILS's.

Bottom line is that you have to have situational awarness were you are on the approach(That means watching the planes speed, and in many cases factoring in the winds aloft). And if its bad vectors by approach you may need to adjust your plane to meet the needs, or simply tell them that this vector isn't gonna work and bring you back around.

Re: the 30 degree cut, you guys should read (refresh ) up on the "approach gate" and vectors in a radar environment.

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/ATPubs/ATC/Chp5/atc0509.html

 

[WSurf]

Re: the 30 degree cut, you guys should read (refresh ) up on the "approach gate" and vectors in a radar environment.

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/ATPubs/ATC/Chp5/atc0509.html

Nerd Alert!

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

A little birdie just told me that the FAA has listened the CVR and the FO and CA were fighting...

That is a pretty strong statement for someone who is not party to the investigation. If the person who told you is a party to the investigation, then he or she is placing his or her organization's "party status" with the NTSB at risk.

I will not even speculate whether this rumor is true or false. I will say that reporting it here in that manner, without evidence, is indicative of an extreme lack of judgement an professionalism on your part. I pray that this is a temporary lapse on your part.

 

[30West]

A little birdie just told me that the FAA has listened the CVR and the FO and CA were fighting...

Forget your meds today?