Cold WX CRJ Scenerio

[Lrjtcaptain]

Okay, so a Skywest CRJ-50 sits overnight in a frigid midwestern town.
The crew shows up at normal show time to get the a/c ready for its trip to SLC. They can't board the pax until over an hour past departure time because the plane is too cold and the emergency lighting has not yet come alive due to the cold frigid midwestern air.

So the flight leaves an hour late and half the pax miss their connecting flights.
Why didn't the crew arrive early and get the a/c ready for normal departure time? Maybe they didn't have their 8 hours rest but doesn't that only include the time the engines are running????? Perhaps something logical could have been done to get this flight out ontime. Something to think about.

P.S. Skywest and Delta, you just lost my vote.
Ill be flying American, America West, or maybe even United next time. Thanks for the wonderful service into Oakland as well, when it took an hour and a half to get my bag from the gate to the baggage claim. Wonderful service. Thanks a bunch.

Mark

 

[FL000]

Why didn't the crew arrive early and get the a/c ready for normal departure time? Maybe they didn't have their 8 hours rest but doesn't that only include the time the engines are running?????

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that your 2000+ doesn't include any 121 time.

 

[five-alive]

Okay, so a Skywest CRJ-50 sits overnight in a frigid midwestern town.
The crew shows up at normal show time to get the a/c ready for its trip to SLC. They can't board the pax until over an hour past departure time because the plane is too cold and the emergency lighting has not yet come alive due to the cold frigid midwestern air.

So the flight leaves an hour late and half the pax miss their connecting flights.
Why didn't the crew arrive early and get the a/c ready for normal departure time? Maybe they didn't have their 8 hours rest but doesn't that only include the time the engines are running????? Perhaps something logical could have been done to get this flight out ontime. Something to think about.

P.S. Skywest and Delta, you just lost my vote.
Ill be flying American, America West, or maybe even United next time. Thanks for the wonderful service into Oakland as well, when it took an hour and a half to get my bag from the gate to the baggage claim. Wonderful service. Thanks a bunch.

Mark

Considering we dont get even get paid to preflight, we sure as hell arent going to drag our asses out of bed early for crap like this.... its the stations fault for not putting ground air on the plane

 

[EagleRJ]

The first station person to arrive that morning should have put the heat cart on the aircraft. If I arrive at the airport to perform my usual preflight duties and the airplane is cold-soaked, I can guarantee you that it won't be going anywhere for at least an hour!

CRJs have a lot of problems in the winter anyway, even though they're made in Canada. Go figure!

 

[English]

Maybe they didn't have their 8 hours rest but doesn't that only include the time the engines are running?????

No, not exactly.

The rest period ended, likely, 45 minutes, before the flight was scheduled to depart. That, likely, coincided with the time the crew showed up at the airport for duty. Usually, rest begins 15 minutes after a crew "blocks in" after a flight. That allows 15 minutes for postflight duties, and 45 minutes for preflight duties.

If you want crew to show up earlier than that, next time, you'd better charter an aircraft. Then you can be assured the crew will arrive at whatever time is necessary to have the aircraft ready. You can't expect that level of service at a regional airline. You can expect a crew to be at the airport 45 minutes before departure time, unless their contract requires otherwise.

It would kinda be like expecting an air traffic controller to come to work early and open the tower early, just because there is an IFR flight plan in the system that has an arrival time before the tower opens. Kinda. Sorta. Oh well. Kinda hard to give you an analogy when you aren't familiar with 121 or 135 regs.

 

[chperplt]

Dude,

You want me to get up early after a reduced rest overnight to make sure the airplane is ready. Would you like me to fly you and your family while I'm half a sleep?

You do realize that crew rest and report times are designed (not very well) to protect you, the passenger, from being flown with a fatigued crew. You do realize that fatigue has caused numerous accidents and incidents, right?

Would you rather get there an hour late or not get there at all?

I have to put your comment/statement as the the dumbass comment of the day.. maybe even week.

Mark.. get a clue.

 

[NOCONTRACT4U]

Ill be flying American, America West, or maybe even United next time

In that exact scenario you can fill in the blank with any airline and they will be in the same situation... Rest times are hard and fast. If that crew had done what you suggested and then dinged a wingtip on the subsequent landing, that crew will take the blame while the FAA and the company mgt talk around the campfire about how that stupid crew violated rest requirements and flew fatiqued, and how in the future they will make an initaitive in training to stop crews from showing up early.. Then they will make a video and show it to every newhire and recurrent class stating how this crew lost their jobs for doing this. (insert video)

 

[trip]

The A/C should have been heated with external air. How cold was it anyway? just curious. My dad had -18f in MN.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

Im not bashing the crew...Im wondering why someone at the airport or if in the worst possible scenerio the pilots showed up to do this because in the long run, the delays had to run across the board later and catch up to the crew.

I guess the system gets manipulated, but if they lets say, have to delay the flight 1 hour for cold conds etc....they are an hour late arriving in the dest city, plus turning the plane, lets say get a quick turn on the flight out, load quick, and now we are only 45 mins delayed for the day but eventually its going to catch up.

Why didn't anyone do anything about it...thats my question. It just doesn't make sense to me..

And dont give me that boho crap about opening the tower early. We stay late when conditions require it. We have times through out the year that we as controllers, and acting supervisors when the ATM and sups are gone to keep the tower open to keep the skies safe. Ive done it because sometimes you have to do more then what your job description says.

Is there no preplanning involved here? Does the airline, ground crew, and or flight crew check ahead and say, mmmmmmm, its gonna be hella cold in the morning, lets get some ground heat in that thing in the morning or is this just a case of everyone is too lazy on xmas to run a normal operation?

For the record, this wasn't a 6am flight, this was an 840am departure.
Your right, i don't have 121 expierience, mine was part91, but all be dammed if we had cold weather and that plane sat out side during the night, the heaters were on, and that plane either was put in the hangar over night or i got that cabin warm before they got there for an ONTIME departure.

 

[FL000]

i don't have 121 expierience, mine was part91, but all be dammed if we had cold weather and that plane sat out side during the night, the heaters were on, and that plane either was put in the hangar over night or i got that cabin warm before they got there for an ONTIME departure.

When I flew 91/135, that's the way we did it too. In 121, we don't. That's contract labor for you. Not trying to be an a$$, just letting you know how it is. Rest is rest.

 

[atrdriver]

It's the stations repsonsibility to get a heat cart on the aircraft before the crew arrives. The crew's responsibility is to get the aircraft ready to operate, safely. If it's too cold, it's too cold. I got on my aircraft yesterday and it was 20f inside, and there WAS a heat cart on it. We got an engine started, got it warmed up, and ended up getting out on time, but then again I fly an ATR.

 

[VA AV8R]

Considering we dont get even get paid to preflight, we sure as hell arent going to drag our asses out of bed early for crap like this.... its the stations fault for not putting ground air on the plane

Ah yes another wonderful attitude...

 

[semperfido]

P.S. Skywest and Delta, you just lost my vote.
Ill be flying American, America West, or maybe even United next time.

Mark

Got news for you. THEY ARE ALL THE SAME!

 

[saltyworks]

I remember one morning in PQI that it was -39C. The limitation on starting the engine on the Metro was -40c.We preheating the engine we got them started. A SF340 went out before us and aborted there takeoff because the made take torque at such a low throttle position, they never got the throttles up to engage the auto-feather. We got in the air but gear would not come up, And when I looked at the FO airspeed it read zero. By the time we got to PWM 40 minutes latter the cabin temp was still bellow zero.

 

[crzepilot]

I do agree

Dude,

You want me to get up early after a reduced rest overnight to make sure the airplane is ready. Would you like me to fly you and your family while I'm half a sleep?

You do realize that crew rest and report times are designed (not very well) to protect you, the passenger, from being flown with a fatigued crew. You do realize that fatigue has caused numerous accidents and incidents, right?

Would you rather get there an hour late or not get there at all?

I have to put your comment/statement as the the dumbass comment of the day.. maybe even week.

Mark.. get a clue.

Most times the pilots rest is computed so the pilot hopefully actually gets the reduced or required rest. Many times it is computed from 15 after minutes the flight is "scheduled" to arrive to 1hour or 45minutes before the morning flight leaves and in order to meet regulations a pilot can't check in before the scheduled report time. If the flight they got in with the night before got delayed that may present a problem requiring a later check in the next morning. also the pilots are most likely not getting all the rest they should because in some cases the ride to and from the hotel may end up being longer than 15 minutes.

 

[Diesel]

Ahhh pqi. Time to go eat at governors. Remember eat desert first!

Even at the fractionals if the show time is at 800 you can garantee we aren't getting there before 800.

 

[chperplt]

A SF340 went out before us and aborted there takeoff because the made take torque at such a low throttle position, they never got the throttles up to engage the auto-feather

This brings back memories.

I spent 2 winters in PQI on the mighty Beech. I can't count the times we took a delay because of the auto feather problem. Either you couldn't get it to test, or you couldn't get it to activate.

After spending the last 4 days in CVG hell, I kind of miss PQI. It didn't seem to matter how much snow and ice they got, the airport was always in workable condition.

 

[414Flyer]

I remember one morning in PQI that it was -39C. The limitation on starting the engine on the Metro was -40c.We preheating the engine we got them started. A SF340 went out before us and aborted there takeoff because the made take torque at such a low throttle position, they never got the throttles up to engage the auto-feather. We got in the air but gear would not come up, And when I looked at the FO airspeed it read zero. By the time we got to PWM 40 minutes latter the cabin temp was still bellow zero.

Yeah amazing how much torque you get when it is cold like that. I did some very cold weather flying this past week during an aircraft ferry. You sure get torque at a lot lower engine speeds, I think I was at 1100lbs torque in a cheyenne II in cruise, at 90% rpm. Coming down final it was at 79%. OAT pegged to the left in cruise. Sure is louder on takeoff, but looks like slow motion when landing, at least compared to the high desert flying I have done.
Plane sure wants to taxi fast when its -30.

I had an unsafe gear indication while taxiing out (frozen microswitches it turns out) , other cheyenne had a check valve under the engine freeze open that was just draining out fuel on the ground until that was fixed.

But flying over Greenland, seeing some northern lights at sunset with the sun reflecting off of them was incredible (wait till the chemtrail kooks see those photos).

 

[enigma]

solidarity bro

Okay, so a Skywest CRJ-50 sits overnight in a frigid midwestern town.
The crew shows up at normal show time to get the a/c ready for its trip to SLC. They can't board the pax until over an hour past departure time because the plane is too cold and the emergency lighting has not yet come alive due to the cold frigid midwestern air.

So the flight leaves an hour late and half the pax miss their connecting flights.
Why didn't the crew arrive early and get the a/c ready for normal departure time?

There can be many reasons that the crew didn't arrive early. The most obvious is the FAR requirement to get at least minimum rest. The next most obvious is hotel van schedules. Crew hotels don't just run the van when the crew decides to leave, these trips are usually scheduled well in advance and the hotel just doesn't run an extra bus to accomodate crews who would like to leave a little early. Especially smaller city hotels; in NYC, you could probably catch an earlier van, but in podunk Kansas, you take the scheduled ride.

Maybe they didn't have their 8 hours rest but doesn't that only include the time the engines are running?????

Rest is release to report. It has absolutely nothing to do with engines.

Perhaps something logical could have been done to get this flight out ontime. Something to think about.

Unlike part 91 corporate ops, 121 operations don't encourage pilot input. The crap you've noticed frustrates us just as it does you. We see stupidity and inefficiency every day. But management (excepting SWA, JetBlue and AirTran) sees us as the enemy. Seriously, they DO NOT listen to us.

I'll bet that the crew did everything within their power to get an ontime departure. Behind the scenes, you might have seen the Captain begging for a heat cart, but the station person might have been busy with a cranky pax who wanted to unsure that her cat could come aboard in her purse.

P.S. Skywest and Delta, you just lost my vote.
Ill be flying American, America West, or maybe even United next time. Thanks for the wonderful service into Oakland as well, when it took an hour and a half to get my bag from the gate to the baggage claim. Wonderful service. Thanks a bunch.

Mark

Mark, as stated above, managment doesn't take many pilot suggestions. They will listen to you the PAYING passenger. If you have a beef, let me suggest that you fire off an email (followed by a snail-mail) to Delta and Skywest. Just please understand that the aircraft belongs to the station during the time period in which you refer.

I'm going to assume that you, being a pilot, will be sympathetic once you understand the system; so here it is: The scheduled service business is structured in this way.... Jobs are specialized and every member of the team in needed in order to accomplish the job with the fewest amount of people. The station manager is responsible for the airplane during it's time on the ground and he or his assignees (worker bees) ensure that the airplane is at the proper gate, it's stores are properly stocked, it's lavs are serviced, etc. If the airplane is cold soaked, the station is responsible for getting a heater hooked up, or a GPU plugged in, in order to ensure an ontime departure. It is not the pilots job to arrange for proper ground handling, etc; nor would it be efficient to give these jobs to pilots because scheduled service pilots are limited by the FAR to a certain amount of duty and pilots cost more per hour than do station personel. Yes, the company could require that pilots show up two hours early instead of 45 minutes in order to save the cost of a hours pay to a ramper, but that extra 75 minutes could cost the company a cancelled flight later in the day if the crew ran out of time. Simply put the system needs to be specialized in order to be efficient.

Here are a few more points to consider. ( I don't know the RJ so I could be slightly wrong ) Our companies are asking us to be a cost effective as possible, I'll bet that Skywest doesn't want the pilots to run the APU until it is absolutely needed for engine start. Back when times were good, I'd crank the APU before I ever sat down to do my checks. Now, I wait until five minutes before push because that is our procedure, I can imagine that Skywest also has procedures in place to save fuel, etc. These measures sometimes get in the way of normal ops. I'm not saying what happened to your flight, but I will say that I truly belive that the delay had nothing to do with the pilots duty arrival time.

The problem you faced was a breakdown in station procedures.

Now, go have a Merry CHRISTmas, and leave the gripping to those of us sitting in a hotel a thousand miles from home.

regards,
enigma

PS, it is entirely possible that your delay had nothing to do with cold egress lighting battery packs. They could have been run down because someone failed to disarm them the previous flight and they needed time to recharge, or it might have had nothing to do with batteries. Unless you personally know the crew, you'll never know.

 

[surplus1]

Lrjtcaptain,

Your post merely indicates you don't understand the differences between corporate and airline operations.

In the Part 91 world pilots are responsible for everything, have no support systems and no rest requirements. That's not the case with airlines.

It may be easy for you to "put the plane in the hangar" when it's a little airplane like a Lear. Not so easy when its larger. Apart from that, airline pilots don't make decisions about hangars on overnights, that function is done by someone else.

All airplanes of any size have low temp limitations. Some situations require pre-heat. When that is the case, the job is the responsibility of ground personnel, not the pilots.

I'll agree that the airline should get its planes ready on time, but you blaming the pilots are barking up the wrong tree.

Also this is not a "CRJ problem". All T-category airplanes have temp limits specific to that type aircraft.

Go ahead and rant, just don't blame pilots. They have nothing to do with creating this problem and no choice other than to delay the flight when they encounter it. Their rest requirements are not optional and can't be changed by the pilots.

If you're unhappy about your specific flight, call the airline involved and register your complaint there. Don't rant on pilots when you don't understand the process.

Merry Christmas

 

[eddie]

I don't know if Skywest ever has a problem with this, but some regional airlines under-equip their stations. Maybe the preheater was inop.

 

[EagleRJ]

Does the airline, ground crew, and or flight crew check ahead and say, mmmmmmm, its gonna be hella cold in the morning, lets get some ground heat in that thing in the morning or is this just a case of everyone is too lazy on xmas to run a normal operation?

That's a good idea, and a noble thought, but airlines are run on a "weakest link" philosophy. Sometimes even when an employee takes action to prevent a delay or other problem in the system, they either lack the authority to make it happen, or can't get the cooperation they need.

Example:
A few years back, I was flying a Saab 340 that had the external power recepticle deferred (some brilliant ramp person had towed the power cart away without unplugging it first). After a whole day of doing battery starts, our batteries were nearing the temperature limits, so I called ahead to MX on our last flight through the hub to ask them to change the batteries (NiCad batteries take a long time to cool down). The guy says, "Oh, don't worry- they'll be fine. Anyway, we're swamped right now". We flew the plane out to our overnight to hand to the next crew, and guess what? The batteries were overheated and the plane was grounded.

Sometimes you just can't win. This CRJ crew could have called ahead to ask the station to put heat on the plane, but who knows if they would have been listened to, and it should have been done anyway without a call. Preheating the plane is the station's duty.

 

[Hovernut]

The STATION plays a large role in getting the 1st flight out on time. A good portion of ours are trained to start the APU and warm up the plane if the OAT is below a predetermined value. I've found that where WE own the outstation, things generally run fairly smoothly. When mainline operates the station, or Delta Global Services, we generally get left on the back burner so they can 'get mainline out' on time.

Case in point: GSO a few days back during the Alberta Clipper where it was -15C or so. Planes are racked and stacked on the ramp; ours was on the back row, first to go out. Station hands us the release....CA looks at it and sees APU MEL. We get to the plane to find the APU inop. Guess what, the station is run by DGS...no power cart, no air cart, no water/lav service. No CLUE!!

After 'getting mainline out,' we finally get ground power and an air cart. After turning on the packs, the cabin fills with an oil mist; lovely, the air cart rotors are spewing atomized oil! So, we start #2 to get some good air. Problem is, we're on the ramp so we cant get too much bleed off the engine to warm the cabin...one of the bummer features of the CRJ-nil bleed at idle. Without asking, they bring a couple pre-boards out. The cabin is still -15C! We turn them away until the cabin warms enough for the flourescents to light up (no problem with emergency lighting).

Finally got some heat in the cabin, but now the flight we're blocking is late because of us. Still no water/lav service, so we leave w/o it. Get in the air with a cold cabin and no coffee for the freezing pax. It was my leg, so it was my turn to say 'bye' as the pax deplaned. The looks and comments I got were none too pleasant just a couple days before the holidays; I was embarrased for my crew and my company. It's hard to take the arrows when it wasn't your link in the chain that was the kink. But, we're on the front lines and the most visible/vulnerable.

But just thinking what's going on right now in CVG makes all that we went through that day w/o the APU and a cantankerous GPU recepticle seem like a day at the beach!

 

[Cardinal]

Just the other day, Colorado mountain town, -18C overnight. All our stations throw a heater in the engine inlet over night so the poor PT6 has a fighting chance of starting the next morning. Well, guess what, this station only has one operative engine heater, and despite pleas from the agents, HQ will not send down a new or functional heater. So we throw the operative heater in #2, say a prayer, and hope for the best. We show at the legally designated time the next morning, 1:00 prior in this case, and go to work. We start #2 without a problem, and crank #1 to taxi out for our run up. The engine turns, but no fuel flow, no lightoff. The fuel control unit is frozen solid. Aft nacelle panels get pulled off, the FBO puts a salamander type propane heater on the accesory section, and we finally get the thing melted and depart :50 late.

This was a 9 hour overnight, and we would get violated if we reported for duty after less than that designated, minimum, and required 9 hours of rest. Sounds like much the same deal as your example, and there was nothing in the flight crew's power that could have been done to avert it.

What the passengers didn't see, was me "touching up" the station's lousy deice job with my $30 dollar leather gloves. Nor our repeated start attempts in an icebox no APU cockpit. Nor did they see the FO plugging in his own GPU because the station agents were dizzy and distracted. Nor the FO throwing bags. Nor the flight crew dicking around outside in the -18C wind ensuring that the Jethro local A&P from BFE doesn't further damage our ride out of town. All that is forgotten.

 

[five-alive]

Ah yes another wonderful attitude...

My "attitude" is to do my job the way Im supposed to, including getting required rest for the sake of my passengers safety. It is not our job to babysit the station or do other peoples jobs, period.

Do you have any 121 experience? If I appear jaded, please see the subsequent posts on corporate culture in a 121 airlines. Besides, life is too short to worry about tomorrows on-time departure. I will worry about work when I am at work.

 

[PIREP]

Im not bashing the crew...Im wondering why someone at the airport or if in the worst possible scenerio the pilots showed up to do this because in the long run, the delays had to run across the board later and catch up to the crew.

I guess the system gets manipulated, but if they lets say, have to delay the flight 1 hour for cold conds etc....they are an hour late arriving in the dest city, plus turning the plane, lets say get a quick turn on the flight out, load quick, and now we are only 45 mins delayed for the day but eventually its going to catch up.

Why didn't anyone do anything about it...thats my question. It just doesn't make sense to me..

And dont give me that boho crap about opening the tower early. We stay late when conditions require it. We have times through out the year that we as controllers, and acting supervisors when the ATM and sups are gone to keep the tower open to keep the skies safe. Ive done it because sometimes you have to do more then what your job description says.

Is there no preplanning involved here? Does the airline, ground crew, and or flight crew check ahead and say, mmmmmmm, its gonna be hella cold in the morning, lets get some ground heat in that thing in the morning or is this just a case of everyone is too lazy on xmas to run a normal operation?

For the record, this wasn't a 6am flight, this was an 840am departure.
Your right, i don't have 121 expierience, mine was part91, but all be dammed if we had cold weather and that plane sat out side during the night, the heaters were on, and that plane either was put in the hangar over night or i got that cabin warm before they got there for an ONTIME departure.

Lrjcaptain- yes you did bash the crew, so don't try to cop out now by saying otherwise. Word to the wise, get all info before speculating. I have to laugh at your "boho crap"(?) You said you stay late, but I didn't notice you say you get there early. We all stay late when need be, big deal. In a perfect world, everything runs great, people love and do there jobs great, and mother nature never rears her ugly head. We all usually do our best with the situation provided. Or in your eyes, we all try to make delays happen because we really, really enjoy listening to customers complain and b*tch at us (it truly makes us feel great inside ). Sorry for venting on you, but busting butt the last couple days to try and erase mother natures furry on airline schedules to try and make sure the customers have a better Christmas than we working crews are having is tiring. I also tip my hat to you in the logical thought process: A delay in the morning could lead to a delay the rest of the day! Woohooo! Rocket science! We crews could have never figured that one out . **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**it, still venting. Sorry, Merry Christmas from the road(still delayed).

 

[trip]

Bumf83k midwest-OAK in dead of winter= several hours. Beats a covered wagon for sure! Look at life on a larger scale and dont stress over things outside of your control.

 

[JetBlast2000]

I remember one morning in PQI that it was -39C. The limitation on starting the engine on the Metro was -40c.We preheating the engine we got them started. A SF340 went out before us and aborted there takeoff because the made take torque at such a low throttle position, they never got the throttles up to engage the auto-feather. We got in the air but gear would not come up, And when I looked at the FO airspeed it read zero. By the time we got to PWM 40 minutes latter the cabin temp was still bellow zero.

I think I remember that week. With the wind chill it was well below –60C. I remember freezing my arse pulling the a/c out of the hanger. Man is I’m glad I don’t have to do that anymore. I fired that engine up so fast and cranked that heater up before you could say boo.



Ahh the memories.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Considering we dont get even get paid to preflight, we sure as hell arent going to drag our asses out of bed early for crap like this.... its the stations fault for not putting ground air on the plane

Its managements fault..
Its the Pilots fault...
Its customer service fault...
Its the Unions fault...
Its the dammm A-rabs fault...

Not saying its YOUR problem (?), you need your required rest, but its this system/attitude that has put the airlines where they are today.

Congrats!

 

[English]

Hey Gulfstream 200, you changed your signature.

How ever will we remember Casper?