Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

CMR management snubs merger

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

FDJ2

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2003
Posts
3,908
From the Comair MEC

As you now know, last week MEC Chairman Capt. JC Lawson, MEC Vice
Chairman Capt. Cory Tennen and ALPA's Assistant Director of
Representation Mr. Bill Roberts met with senior Comair management in
what was thought to be a meeting to respond to the joint CMR/ASA MEC
proposal for integration of the two pilot groups. Unbeknownst to Capt.
Lawson when the meeting was requested, this meeting also included
representatives of the IBT (representing Comair Flight Attendants).
When ALPA became aware that the IBT was also invited, it became obvious
that we would not receive a serious response to our request.

Some of the members of management that were present were Comair
President Randy Rademacher, Senior Vice President of Aircraft Operations
K. Michael Stewart, V.P. Flight Operations Don Osmundson and V.P. Labor
Relations Walter Darr. Mr. Rademacher began the meeting not by
immediately addressing our proposal but instead he stated we were
brought together so management could "take one last shot at the new
aircraft". In other words, one more attempt to convince your
representatives to voluntarily cannibalize your Agreement.

Mr. Rademacher did respond to our proposal after a few introductory
sentences to simply state that Comair "discussed the ALPA proposal with
our legal council" and had been advised that Comair has "no authority to
negotiate the types of considerations which ALPA wanted". Further he
stated that ALPA's certification at Comair pertains "only to the
representation of Comair pilots" and that the ALPA proposal was "beyond
the purview of either the Comair MEC or of Comair".

Your ALPA Representatives were extremely disappointed that Comair made
the comments they did. Not only did management simply state what was
already known to all at the table, they ignored the fact that the ALPA
proposal specifically requested involvement from Delta and DCI personnel
in order to protect the future job security of all Comair and ASA
employees. They made it very clear that management had no interest in
truly discussing such job protections.

Instead, as you may have already seen posted on the ALPA LEC board in
operations, management had a two-option approach to convince us to
partake in "bidding for flying" (for up to 45 additional aircraft).
Management did state that these are suggested changes and we could
negotiate others, but the cost savings must be proportional.

Option #1
Maintain current pay scale with 1.5% annual increases in "04" & "05"
Include pilots in new Performance Pay Program (effective June "04")
Current per diem with $.05 increases for "04" & "05"
10 Days off for all reserve pilots (effective Jan "05")
Reserve assignments to lowest credit order (effective Jan "05")

Option #2
Maintain current pay scale with 2.5% annual increases in "04" & "05"
Pilots not included in new Performance Pay Program
Current per diem with $.05 increases for "04" & "05"
10 Days off for all reserve pilots (effective Jan "05")
Reserve assignments to lowest credit order (effective Jan "05")


It was further stated by management that the above options do not
guarantee all additional aircraft and in fact should only some of the
proposed aircraft arrive then we will meet to discuss a prorating of the
above items (somehow, somewhere).

A word about the Performance Pay Program: This "new" program is in fact
similar to those used at other carriers. It is a system set up by
management that utilizes such things as mishandled baggage, on-time
performance, customer satisfaction and operating costs. The "goals" are
naturally set by management, and perhaps adjusted as needed by
management. It is a tiered system based on seniority that pays out
quarterly using monthly statistics. Management explained that it could
pay out anywhere from $0 dollars to as much as $2,400 dollars a year.
Mr. Rademacher stated that he would expect it to pay no more than $1,200
dollars in a good year. However it is important to note that no matter
what the payout, even if it were the absolute maximum amount, it would
never reimburse the employee for even the hourly dollars they gave up in
the Agreement, never mind the other contractual savings management
seeks.

Captain Lawson after careful discussion with all of your MEC
representatives notified management late on Thursday afternoon that ALPA
would not partake in any discussions at this time which would require
pilots to concede various contractual provisions in an attempt to "bid
for flying". He stated very clearly that ALPA was disappointed that
management failed to address ALPA's job security concerns and that ALPA
had been very clear in the original ALPA proposal that unless management
did address our concerns, ALPA would have no choice in deciding not to
engage in discussions. Captain Lawson further said that management has
made the decision themselves to not address their employee concerns and
that management (Comair, ASA and Delta) bare all blame for the loss of
any future flying which Delta management chooses to give to carriers
other than Comair or ASA.

If you have any further questions, please contact your Status
Representative or MEC Officers.
 
Our MEC (ASA) sent a similar letter to an ASA Sr VP basically stating the same concerns as the previous post. What these companies want (ASA/CMR) is such an insignificant amout of money which would have no bearing on acquiring these phantom 45 jets. All they want is to screw with their employees in an attempt to intimidate us. Not going to happen.

I hope our respective MECs continue to release information to the general public and shareholders of DAL about the MEC proposal to combine the two carriers and the savings that could be realized. I have no doubt that the new CEO of DAL is aware of the proposal. But this unfortunately is the new mandate at all corporate companies in this country, which is to reduce costs and outsource to cut costs. In the meantime management and their boards award their selves incentives, bonuses, and protect their retirement plans. Even the Inflight VP (Eva Holley) gets a bonus for cutting costs at ASA in her area.

It has to stop sometime and somewhere, so the pilots of ASA and COMAIR will put a stop to it.
 
I would think that CMR management would be all for it. They would be in charge of a much larger airline (bigger pay and bonus). ASA management has a lot more to lose in such a merger, like their jobs.
 
Sometimes

sometimes I wonder, is everything in a vacumn to you guys? Someone walks into Comair with this kind of proposal and wonders why they will not look at it.

Take the thing to Leo and see what he has to say. Did anyone really think that there was going to be a merger of these companies because the pilots want a merged list.

Why did you not just add ACA and Mesa as well, maybe Atlantic SE too. Then after making this proposal, you are surprised that Comair did not embrace it. RR has no way of negotiating something like this, he does not have any control over ASA.

Get over it.
 
Hey Publishers, if they want any sort of voluntary concessions, they will have to listen to the pilots' proposals as well. You might as well ask for the moon when someone else wants something from you. If they say no, you can also say NO too. The economy is getting better and they are losing their chance to get concessions. That is how you play the game.

Bye Bye--General Lee;) :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by Publishers
Take the thing to Leo and see what he has to say.
Leo who?

Originally posted by Publishers
Why did you not just add ACA and Mesa as well, maybe Atlantic SE too.
Atlantic SE is ASA, and they were added to this proposal. ASA and Comair are WOs of Delta, ACA and Mesa are not.

Like General said, if you don't ask for it, you won't get it. Besides, what is so bad about a pilot group being proactive in trying to make the airline much stronger?

Originally posted by Publishers
Get over it.
Get over what?
 
Last edited:
Re: Sometimes

Publishers said:
sometimes I wonder, is everything in a vacumn to you guys? Someone walks into Comair with this kind of proposal and wonders why they will not look at it.

Take the thing to Leo and see what he has to say. Did anyone really think that there was going to be a merger of these companies because the pilots want a merged list.

Why did you not just add ACA and Mesa as well, maybe Atlantic SE too. Then after making this proposal, you are surprised that Comair did not embrace it. RR has no way of negotiating something like this, he does not have any control over ASA.

Get over it.

Yea, we all believed that our respective managements would just make it happen. We also believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny.

Why add ACA or Mesa. The purpose of the proposal was twofold, to respond to our management's silly request for concessions with something that would give them pause, and second to take all future DCI flying for ASA and Comair (and probably the furloughed DAL pilots in order to to get their support).
 
A few things......I don't remember voting on a merger, since when did a majority of the CMR pilots want a merger? For that matter when did the majority of ASA pilots want a merger? This is just another JC Lawson agenda matter that was NEVER voted on by the pilots...sure, lots of our vocal guys/gals want a merger...that's what, 100plus........Before we start saying no to management proposals based on the merger I think we should vote to see if it is really what CMR/ASA pilots want. If so, then start holding ground on this subject, but not until we know that the majority of pilots want it.

The merger will never happen......that is fact. If you owned a business would you want all your eggs in one basket? If it did happen, there would be furloughs and more contract carriers...look at US Airways...they have how many contract carriers? I'm all for job security and doing what it takes to achieve that but I don't think a merger is the way to go.

Date of hire???? is that how we would merge? Food for thought, CMR will have hired 286 pilots by the end of 2003, how many pilots did ASA hire in 2003? that means that the bottom ASA guy/gal will instantly have 300+CMR pilots under him/her if the merger happened in Jan 04...good times for ASA, sucky deal for CMR.....

Now is the time to scream and yell and post emotional responses......All I ask is accountability of our MEC to do what the pilot group wants.....the saying of the day is "my MEC speaks for me" well......let's make that a true statement shall we.

My only other issue is the hat, I'll take concessions if we could get rid of the hat. Oh, and crew meals.....gotta have crew meals.


Waco
 
There are quite a few pilots who agree with you, Waco. Too bad none of them are making their voices heard. Let your reps know how you feel and encourage others to do the same.
 
point

The point was that it was not a legitimate proposal, no so more than my adding the non Delta related carriers. On many other points, we have reviewed why you even have separate regional carriers at all. One reason you ahve them is to sell them off like did Continental and Northwest.

When you float sometning like this that has no chance, is not even a deal that the people you are dealing with can accept or reject, then make a big deal of their rejection, you look like the idot, not them.
 
No chance huh. I wonder how many guys at Executive, Wings West and all those other Eagle carriers thought that there merging would never happen.

So if we dont merge, what do we do the next time Delta sends out another RFP for a/c? Decline concessions again and watch Skywest, Chat, Mesa or whoever else underbid us and watch them grow? I flew for one of the U WO carriers for a couple of years and know how it feels to sit on the sidelines while watching a contract carrier(s) grow. It AINT fun and I sure hope and pray I dont have to go through that again.

This is the best chance Ive seen at protecting our (CMR/ASA) jobs. If someone has a better suggestion, lets hear it!

CRJ FO
 
Wacopilot,

Our MEC and our reps have been very available over the past couple of months and have talked to a lot of pilots. The conversations I've had with them and other pilots clearly indicate that your stance on the merger is the minority view. You are certainly entitled to that opinion but to suggest that JC is venturing out on his own without polling the pilots is simply not true.

The MEC has repeatedly stated that if they get a reasonable offer from management they will bring it to us for a vote. They are negotiating and all 1800 pilots can't be a part of the negotiations. If you have a strong opinion then let them know what it is. They'll factor that into what they've been hearing from the rest of us.

There are a few very junior CMR pilots that seem to be overly concerned about a DOH merger with ASA. They will probably slide backwards a little bit in seniority if that ever happens. IMO they are being shortsighted to the long term potential of a merger. They appear to be willing to conceed parts of the current PWA just to get growth. Fortunately they ARE in the minority and our leadership is following the guidance of the majority.

The majority position seems to be that we are willing to talk about concessions and what we want in return is a merger with ASA and brand scope. As of now it's a moot point because our MEC has walked away from the table and rightly so. Rademacher isn't serious about this. He's fishing. I agree with my MEC. I like the status quo. This contract is just fine for now. See ya in '06 Randy.
 
Last edited:
I would think that CMR management would be all for it. They would be in charge of a much larger airline (bigger pay and bonus). ASA management has a lot more to lose in such a merger, like their jobs.

Sleepy,

Publicly Comair mgmt may be against the merger but privately I am sure they are considering the impact it would have on their mgmt organization. Its no secret that there would be a wide spread dismissal of senior and mid level mgmt at ASA.
 
Publishers, I'm disappointed with your take on this one. The proposals by our respective MECs are solidly based on the input from a significant portion of the pilot groups.

If DL management, the true management here, is less concerned about the current precarious financial position of the company, and more concerned about possible labor unrest in 2007 or so -- then we don't have much to discuss and so I will happily entertain their thoughts at that time.

But if continuously bad financial losses mounting into the billions, that's with a b, necessitates a restructuring of the current business model, then I believe we do have something to talk about. I am not inclined to enable our company to pit us against one another and that is what concessions in a business-as-usual paradigm represent.

As the good General has pointed out, anything is negotiable -- or maybe I am just an idiot.;)
 
Caveman,

I understand that there are alot of pilots for the merger, but I think you will be suprised at how many are against it. All I am asking for is a vote.....and please, I have tried that "talk to your rep" and that is good if you have the same opinion as they do, if you dissagree then all you get is a lecture on why you are wrong and they are right.........And yes there are alot of "junior" pilots that are against it....but there are over 400 Junior fo's and 250 Junior captains that would be negativily affected by the merger. That's 650 pilots plus the 120 they will hire next year.....I don't want to argue but the safe thing would be to have a vote....simple and fool proof. Many people say one thing and vote another, example A: Our current contract B: RJDC, I bet you would be suprised how many CMR pilots DON'T support the RJDC. The Vote would work for both CMR and ASA. Food for thought.

Again, the emotional responses should begin.

Waco
 
Waco, have you considered a simple proportional adjustment of the seniority list? Take your current seniority number and then divide it by the total number of Comair pilots. Then multiply that by the sum of ASA and Comair pilots. The result is that you would be at exactly the same relaitve place on a combined list that you were prior. Add in a fence lasting several years in duration and that would protect the junior pilots in base at both companies.

I don't think that taking concessions for crew meals is a worthy trade off. There hasn't been a crew meal created that would offset lousy schedules, lower pay, and bad work rules. JMHO
 
Last edited:
DOH, period.

There is ONLY one way to merge ASA and Comair and that's date of hire. There is no way the majority of Comair pilots (or a single ASA pilot) is going to agree to some fantasy seniority ratio.

What if there is a merger, but it takes a year or two to happen. Now ASA has hired hundreds more than Comair. Suddenly those FEW short sighted pilots worried about their relative % seniroty will have screwed themselves in the opposite direction.

Our respective MEC's sat down years ago and settled on DOH. Even when Comair had many more jet positions. Regardless of who went on strike and who grew as a result. Through the years its been DOH, period. There is no way in hell our brothers at ASA with years of seniority are going to be stapled to the bottom of Comair new hires. You can get over that fantasy right here and now.

Comair and ASA are allies, equals and brothers through thick and thin. Any potential merger WILL reflect it. And yes, of course, there will be fences and freezes and appropriate growth protections (eliminate fututre outsourcing for starters) so even if someone slipped to a lower relative total group percentage of seniority no pilot would have any fewer pilots junior to him/her, and would get twice as many junior to them in the future.

But then again you probably already heard this from your status rep. Its their job to listen to you and weigh your voice in comparison to the voices of all others. Its not their job to agree with you, especialy when you're wrong.

DOH or whipsaw, take your pick. If you chose whipsaw you better pray ASA doesn't sign a contract with an ammendable date several years beyond ours, or you'll lose a whole lot more "relative seniority" than you will in a fair and equitable merger.

Peace.
 
Yikes, such absolutes, not much room for negotiating with that attitude. Please note that I appended a fence agreement to smooth the way. A three year base freeze could protect junior pilots, for example. Just trying to keep it simple.

Our futures are inexctricably intertwined. There is no crystal ball to show all the what ifs if we do or do not merge. The DCI "bid" system as assured that.

DOH or nothing? C'mon, use a little imagination.:D
 
Re: DOH, period.

You're missing the point completely, P38. Fences and freezes are no good if you're furloughed. 10% over capacity at Comair results in 180 furloughed Comair pilots. 10% over capacity at a merged list results in 350 COMAIR pilots on the street, no ASA pilots. You can cite "long term" all you want, but what we're concerned about is getting to the long term without having a pink slip in hand. Meanwhile Senior pilots will immediately gain seniority.
Isn't this a case of Comair making the Senior more senior, and the Junior more junior? Where's our Robin Hood!?!?!?

I'd love to hear Surplus' take on this.
 

Latest posts

Latest resources

Back
Top