Closed pattern: Best time to turn X-wind?

[Horizon]

I was basically taught to climb up to pattern altitude before making the turn to crosswind.

Well, flying today, another pilot in the pattern told the tower that I was "long" as seemed a little pissed off about it.

Should I change my procedure? Is there perhaps a general rule of thumb concerning when it's best to turn crosswind?

Thanks.

 

[epic!]

thats the way i was taught, just sounds like that other pilot was a d!ck

 

[sqwkvfr]

I think the AIM suggests turning crosswind such that you reach pattern altitude upon turning downwind.

I find that 700' AGL works pretty well in most piston singles to accomplish this.

Perhaps I'm in the minority here, but I don't find too many people who wait until pattern altitude to turn crosswind.

Also, turning back to the runway in the event of an engine failure after flying upwind until TPA is impossible. I like to keep it a little closer to the runway in the event of a problem.

 

[oops!]

400' agl and the end of the runway... turn when you get both.... not an official rule but it's what I was taught

 

[LarryinTN]

AIM 4-3-3: "If remaining in the traffic pattern, commence turn to crosswind leg beyond the departure end of the runway within 300 feet of pattern altitude."

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/Chap4/aim0403.html

Not trying to be rude but don't CFI's teach the AIM these days?

 

[Horizon]

400' agl and the end of the runway... turn when you get both.... not an official rule but it's what I was taught

So once you're 400' AGL you should level off and fly to the end of the runway...and only then resume climbing to TPA?

That seems strange...

 

[VNugget]

So once you're 400' AGL you should level off and fly to the end of the runway...and only then resume climbing to TPA?

That seems strange...

No, he means to turn when "both" have already happened.

 

[momalley81]

So once you're 400' AGL you should level off and fly to the end of the runway...and only then resume climbing to TPA?

That seems strange...

No, if you're flying off a runway short enough, or an airplane with enough balls, to make it to 400AGL before the end of the runway, keep the damned thing climbing until the other side then turn.

Seriously; how does someone get "lots and lots" of time and NOT figure this ******************** out? Seems I learned this ******************** before my mentor let me go on my own...

 

[Immelman]

I was taught 400-500' AGL. Do you really want to fly that far away from the airport (a decent place to land) before turning at all? Additionally, in congested areas it can be pretty annoying to be behind someone doing this when trying to knock out a few landings.

I once, and only once, cut someone off who did this (and I believe I was legal in doing that too, I announced my turn and this was all while climbing, so the 'lower traffic' rule on landing right of way did not apply). By the time he was finally midfield downwind I was landing again....yes, I keep the patterns tight. I'm just sayin....

 

[avbug]

The answer is it really depends on what you're doing. If you have nothing else to do and you can climb straight ahead to the pattern altitude or just below it, fine. In many cases, especially if you're at a busy place with fast traffic behind you, making a turn early to improve traffic efficiency is the order of the day. Or to avoid wake turbulence.

I fly some aircraft that will never go to 500' above the runway due to the type of operation...turns are made as soon as the flaps are retracted, often at 10' AGL and before the end of the runway, and I'll be at downwind below a hundred feet. Non typical, but normal for that kind of flying. Again, it really depends where you are and what you're doing.

 

[pilotyip]

400' Agl

The turn should be a 400' AGL, or the end of the runway which ever comes last. Unless there is another A/C in the pattern on the downwind, then the turn is started when the airplane is abeam. A Cessna 150 in the summer would be in the next county before it got to pattern altitude. Pet peeve of mine, is the airplane that logs X-C time in the patern, 3 mile X-winds, where you are not even sure this guy is in the pattern, must be pilot training to be B-747 pilots.

 

[imacdog]

Did anyone else notice in this thread that the recommended procedure in the AIM is quoted in post #5?

 

[avbug]

Did anyone else notice in this thread that the recommended procedure in the AIM is quoted in post #5?

Yes, but the question embodied in the title of the thread is not the FAA's recommendation, but "best time to turn xwind."

The answer is, of course, that it depends on the circumstance.

 

[imacdog]

I think the circumstance was pretty clear in the thread title: "Closed pattern", not "crop dusting"

 

[avbug]

I wasn't talking about crop dusting.

The circumstances dictate. Even in a closed pattern.

 

[unreal]

Well, flying today, another pilot in the pattern told the tower that I was "long" as seemed a little pissed off about it.

Had the same type of thing happen once. I was doing a pre-solo training flight with a student, and I was having him turn crosswind 300' below TPA. All of a sudden, another aircraft from the parallel runway (we were on the right) drifts in front of us and makes a right turn, basically cutting us off. I mentioned on to tower what'd happened, to which the pilot of the other aircraft responded: "We had the aircraft on the extended upwind in sight. Thanks."

Jerk.

 

[pilotyip]

so what am I hearing in reference to post 5, in my C-150 I should climb to 700'AGL before turning X-wind? Even if that takes me 2 miles off the end of the runway

 

[LarryinTN]

so what am I hearing in reference to post 5, in my C-150 I should climb to 700'AGL before turning X-wind?

No, you should climb to within 300' of the pattern altitude. For a C-150 that would vary from as low as 300' AGL to as high as 700' AGL.

Is it really necessary to over think this? Wouldn't it be easier if pilots actually read the AIM and just followed its guidance?

 

[Joshrk22]

500 feet AGL, works like a charm everytime in the 172.

 

[avbug]

No, you should climb to within 300' of the pattern altitude. For a C-150 that would vary from as low as 300' AGL to as high as 700' AGL.

Is it really necessary to over think this? Wouldn't it be easier if pilots actually read the AIM and just followed its guidance?

Where do you find a recommendation to fly a 600' pattern in a Cessna 150...seems if you're going to advocate adherence to the AIM, then you ought to advocate standard taffic patern altitudes, no?