Closed pattern: Best time to turn X-wind?

[nosehair]

The circumstances dictate. Even in a closed pattern.

Avbug, I did not know you were such a...cowboy! You surprise me sometime.
Anyway, it seems you are saying that it is ok to fly the pattern as you wish.

While the AIM recommended procedure is just that - recommended, I don't think you are proposing that we can just wing in any ol way we want to.

It's just not good manners. An orderly traffic pattern keeps every body on the same track.

I don't always enter on a 45 to the downwind either, but when I don't, I know I am responsible to not cut-off anybody who is established on the downwind.

Turning crosswind at the 700' AGL as recommended in the AIM keeps the pattern standard.

Of course, if you are climbing at a slow rate, and this carries you too far out, of course, turn early enough to not comprimise safety. Of course, turn early if there is no on on downwind and you are sure of it. There are plenty of reaons to deviate from the standard to enhance safety and efficiency, but we still should mantain a 'standard' to hold to whenever there is traffic. That's how we can all be in the same pattern together.

If some people turn crosswind at the end of the runway at 300', that's just plain too soon, except in some of the 'unusual' circimstances which I am sure you can describe, but that's not 'normal'.

 

[pilotyip]

Ah Ha! Nosehair has won the gold ring. Common sense. One rule does not fit all, you as a PIC, CFI or whatever have to use judgment to determine what is the best course of action. True turning at 300' AGL at the end of the runway is probably too early, climbing to 700' AGL, for a 1,000' AGL pattern, and turning 1.5 miles off the end of the runway is probably too late. Somewhere in between is the proper place to turn. Judgment is what will determine that spot.

 

[svcta]

Here's a grand opportunity for me to say to the world at large not to fly friggin 747 patterns at your local airport in just about anything powered by pistons. I've always had this gripe. Bottom line: You should always be able to make the runway if the pilot fan quits turning while in the traffic pattern.

To the original poster: It seems like you were trying to sort out the information in the above posts.....sart the turn at 500-700' and you'll be fine. Achieving pattern alt. before the turn would most likely extend the upwind leg a little too far. Again, the spirit of the thing is to keep you and everyone around you comfortably spaced with the runway.

 

[LarryinTN]

Where do you find a recommendation to fly a 600' pattern in a Cessna 150

In the exact same AIM section to which I linked in post #5.

AIM 4-3-3: "At most airports and military air bases, traffic pattern altitudes for propeller-driven aircraft generally extend from 600 feet to as high as 1,500 feet above the ground."

Doesn't anyone teach the AIM anymore? Doesn't anyone read the AIM anymore?

 

[avbug]

Avbug, I did not know you were such a...cowboy! You surprise me sometime.

You did not know that because I am not that. Enjoy your surprise. You find something "cowboy" about pointing out a fact, that various circumstances may dictate when one makes the turn to crosswind? Not my opinion, mind you, but a fact.

ATC advises immediate left turn. ATC advises offset, or right turn for wake turbulence. Traffic to depart afer is faster, early turn...none of these things are abnormal, nor are they contrary to safe operating practice. Happens all the time, very often at the behest and direction of Air Traffic Control...that same organization from the womb of the agency that gave birth to the AIM. Imagine that. Nothing "cowboy" about it. The circumstances dictate.

Anyway, it seems you are saying that it is ok to fly the pattern as you wish.

Mmmm...seems to so you; you hear what you want to hear. I said NO such thing. Save your words for your own mouth, and not mine.

I don't always enter on a 45 to the downwind either, but when I don't, I know I am responsible to not cut-off anybody who is established on the downwind.

Et tu, Brutus? Don't do as you do, but do as you say? You say follow the AIM, though you admit you don't...you're just careful, so it's okay. But everyone else follow the AIM. Is everyone else not as careful as you? Perhaps that's why others are "cowboy?"

There are plenty of reaons to deviate from the standard to enhance safety and efficiency, but we still should mantain a 'standard' to hold to whenever there is traffic. That's how we can all be in the same pattern together.

Hmmm....now saying that the circumstances dictate when one should turn is a "cowboy" thing to say...yet here you tell us that plenty of reasons exist to do just that. Are you a closet cowboy?

Doesn't anyone teach the AIM anymore? Doesn't anyone read the AIM anymore?

Apparently not...or you might have read the part right below what you quoted, which states...

Enter pattern in level flight, abeam the midpoint of the runway, at pattern altitude. (1,000’ AGL is recommended pattern altitude unless established otherwise. . .).

Do you see a lot of 600' pattern altitudes? 1,000 is most common, with 800' also being fairly common. 600' is not a common altitude, and the reference you provided makes no recommendatiion to fly the pattern at 600'. If you would make an effort at taking your own counsel to READ, you'd note that the AIM recommendation is 1,000'. Don't you read the AIM any more?

Never mind that the requirement to fly left hand patterns unless otherwise published, but the recommend entry to that pattern is a right turn. Think about it. There are more ways to fly a pattern than one, and more ways to do it safely, and correctly.


So long as we're going to sit here and be cowboys and beat this dead horse bloody, why not just look at what the AIM has to say about the AIM...

d. This publication, while not regulatory, provides information which reflects examples of operating techniques and procedures which may be requirements in other federal publications or regulations. It is made available solely to assist pilots in executing their responsibilities required by other publications.

Now of course the only regulation regarding traffic pattern altitude is spelled out in 14 CFR 91.129(e)(1), in which turbine airplanes in class D airspace are held to a minimum of 1,500' in the traffic pattern. The only other regulation pertaining to the pattern, other than VFR visibility requirements, is found in 91.126(b), and pertains to directions of turns. Seems that while the AIM is there to assist pilots in meting the requirements of the regulation, the regulation is silent on the topic, which leaves you in that awful lurch...in this case the AIM is not there to help you meet the burden of the regulation as there is no regulation germain to the topic.

The closest you will find shall be 91.119...which provides that the overall guidance is that at any time, you must not operate at an alatitude so as to endanger persons or property on the surface. The regulation also excludes itself from takeoffs and landings...both of which form the framework for the closed pattern. Seems you're out of luck on that one. The AIM says the AIM is there to help you follow the regulation, and there isn't regulation petinent to the subject at hand...seems that one isn't entirely negligent by failing to ensure the stick is so tight in one's rectal passage as to preclude any semblence of intelligent, rational thought...in conducting safe operations in the traffic pattern. Wonder of wonders.

What you will find, backtracking to 91.126(b), is a requirement to make all turns to the left in the traffic pattern, except where a right hand pattern is given. This isn't a recommendation. It's a legal requirement. If you follow the AIM guidance of a 45 degee entry to the downwind, you are making a right hand turn...you must turn right on that 45 degree entry, to enter the left hand pattern, and that entry and that turn is made on the downwind leg...immediately placing you in violation of the regulation. The horror!

How about this little tidbit from the preface to the AIM, as the official policy and statement of the FAA Administrator...

The Aeronautical Information Manual will not contain informative items concerning everyday circumstances that pilots should, either by good practices or regulation, expect to encounter or avoid.

That must really put your mind at ease, seeing as the black and white cookie cutter world is spelled out so clearly for you in the AIM. It actually tells you to use some common sense. Specifically, it tells you that not everything will be spelled out in the AIM. Go figure.

 

[LarryinTN]

Apparently not...or you might have read the part right below what you quoted

That is completely consistent with what I have been saying.

 

[QueensPilot]

I think there is also part of the concern of, say, a high wing airplane(or any airplane) climbing on the downwind into a low-wing airplane(or any airplane). Waiting until 300 feet below pattern altitude helps you to be established at TPA when you turn downwind, thus not climbing into anyone. Also, I believe, airplanes on the 45 at TPA can see an airplane that is on the downwind at the same altitude(TPA) than if it is lower and blending in with the ground.

 

[nosehair]

You did not know that because I am not that..

..uh..I know, man, I wuz just tryin' to shine wit' ya. imp:

 

[avbug]

..uh..I know, man, I wuz just tryin' to shine wit' ya.

I have no idea what that means.

 

[nosehair]

Of course you don't.