"Cleared To Land"

[BradG]

When must you be either cleared to land, or given a sequence by? Is it only before you turn base, turn final, or before your wheels touch the runway. I always thought it was REQUIRED before you touched down, but i try not to turn final without it, but whats the official rule?

 

[chperplt]

In the airline world at busy airports, you may not hear those words until you are on very short final.

 

[tarp]

In the ATC handbook, the tower controller only has to keep 3,000 feet horizontally between a Category I airplane and another Cat I or Cat II aircraft. So he can bring you in very tight and then clear you to land as soon as the prior airplane is assured of either taxiing clear or going around.

A Category II aircraft has to have 4,500 feet of separation (from other aircraft). This applies to either landing or takeoff. And its 6,000 feet for the big boys unless wake turbulence becomes an issue.

I would suggest that you make that turn to final or the controllers are going to get very mad at you.

Read AIM 4-3-1

 

[Brother Francis]

No hard and fast rule here regarding the position of your aircraft in the traffic pattern. It depends on the local controller and when his criteria (as accurately stated above) allow the issuance of the landing clearance.

If you have not been issued a landing clearance by short final and no one is on the runway ahead of you, a friendly reminder "verify xxx is cleared to land?" should resolve the issue.

 

[JetPilot500]

When given an instruction by the tower to fly a traffic pattern or enter a pattern of some sort, you do so. There is no restrictions on turning final with or without a clearance. Use your head, if someone is in front of you landing on your runway or landing on a crossing runway, you will know why you may not have been cleared yet. If nothing is going on, you may query the controller.

If you do not turn final, where are you gonna go? You could create a conflict with other traffic depending on the airport you are at. That could be a dangerous thing. It is the controllers job to "sequence" aircraft for landing. Therefore, if he doesn't want you to turn final he'll give you an adjustment beforehand, such as, "Cessna 123, make a right 270 to join final." But again, use your head. If you see something potentially dangerous, let him know. Remember, it is your job to "see and avoid."

On a similar subject, it is legal for a controller to have you land on a runway when the aircraft in front of you has not cleared the runway yet. As tarp mentioned the controller needs to keep 3,000' of separation between aircraft. So as long as that separation exists, you can land, with a clearance of course.

JetPilot500

 

[burg]

Good Question

""On a similar subject, it is legal for a controller to have you land on a runway when the aircraft in front of you has not cleared the runway yet.""


I've often wondered about this. When your really tight exactly when do you have to GoAround.
Where does it say that you can touchdownwith another A/C on the runway.

Appreciate the info.

burg

 

[BoDEAN]

Brad: I believe it is prior to your wheels making contact with the ground. I have been about 10-15 ft above the runway, before I finally hear "Seneca XXX cleared to land." Sometimes I will say "Seneca XXX short final" if I have not been told the magic words "Cleared to land.'"

Hope this helps

 

[BradG]

Regarding the 3000ft seperation, who's responsibility is it to maintain that? The controllers? or yours? At a largers airport, it would be kinda tough to determine where 3000ft is, especially if your unfamiliar. If i touch down and the other airplane is only 2000ft down, who's in trouble? Me or the guy in the tower?

 

[Rush Limbaugh]

I once had an interesting encounter with some controllers over a clearance to land. I was participating in an exercise involving about 30 other jets and was near the back of the recovery train. One of the jets in front of me took the cable and closed the runway. Unfortunately for me and everyone behind me, we didn't have the gas to hold until they cleared the runway so we had to divert to the local international airport. The controllers there were not used to us landing at their airport. Every once in a while a couple jets will divert into there but not 10 all at the same time. They didn't want us flying up initial so we flew a visual straight in using our own separation rules. As I was cruising down final, the controller was concerned that I was only a mile behind the dude in front of me. I was thinking that I only need to land 3,000 feet behind him regardless if he is still on the runway. But since the controller was making a stink about it, I figured, I'd use 6,000 feet and not to mention that his "1 mile and closing" translated to 1.4 miles and a closure of 10 knots on my radar. Once he landed, I was over the approach lights and the controller said "aircraft short final, go around, aircraft on runway." Looking at my gas, I was about a beer above emergency fuel so I said "unable" and landed anyway and then directed my wingman to land as well. Needless to say, the controller wasn't all that happy with me and gave me his phone number and acted like it was the last time I would ever fly an airplane. I never called the guy but he did violate my callsign which was placed in the "noted" file in the wing safety office along with the dozen or so the FAA whines about each week.

I wouldn't recommend landing without clearance, especially a civilian pilot, but sometimes you just have to ask yourself what the safest option is. I could have gone around, declared an emergency and knocked everyone else off their approach which probably would have forced them to declare an emergency or I could just land with double the separation my own rules dictate and upset the controller.

 

[Brother Francis]

Rush Limbaugh wrote: "I wouldn't recommend landing without clearance, especially a civilian pilot, but sometimes you just have to ask yourself what the safest option is."

91.3 (a), (b)

 

[Clownpilot]

Differences training

>>

Once he landed, I was over the approach lights and the controller said "aircraft short final, go around, aircraft on runway." Looking at my gas, I was about a beer above emergency fuel so I said "unable" and landed anyway and then directed my wingman to land as well. Needless to say, the controller wasn't all that happy with me and gave me his phone number and acted like it was the last time I would ever fly an airplane. I never called the guy but he did violate my callsign which was placed in the "noted" file in the wing safety office along with the dozen or so the FAA whines about each week.>>

You survived this for one simple reason. As a military pilot they cannot violate you. They can only request that your controlling authority take action against you. In other words the Secretary of the Air Force would have to take action on behalf of the FAA. Guess how often that happens?

>>I wouldn't recommend landing without clearance, especially a civilian pilot,...........>>

Sage advice. The fact is had you done this at a commercial carrier you would have been violated, forced to appear before a board for the FAA, license probably suspended by the FAA, possibly fined out of your own pocket, and I guarantee your carrier would have sent you on an unpaid vacation. The FAA rules the civilian aviation world and all airlines answer to them. If you leave the military for a commercial job, leave the military attitude towards the controllers behind with it. When you were minimum fuel you should have declared it, when you went emergency fuel you should have declared that too.

 

[Typhoon1244]

When must you be cleared to land?

I know of more than one airline crew who, as they were clearing the runway, heard approach control (whoops!) say "Airline 123, if you're still on frequency, the tower said you were cleared to land!"

Moral: contrary to what some people think, most controllers are decent people who know we're all human and will give you a break if you need it. Remember that!

 

[tdvalve]

The FAA can and has suspended or revoked civilian pilot certificates of military pilots violating FAR's in military aircraft. This is the first avenue taken when a military service treats an alleged violation as a "whine", as Mr. Limbaugh characterizes it. Even when there's no civilian certificate at stake, the pertinent military service has to report the action taken back to the FAA. If the FAA doesn't like what they hear, they can appeal back to the service for stronger corrective action. If still unresolved, the matter can be elevated to the department level with the White House Chief of Staff as referee. Never heard of one not being resolved at a lower level. Of course, the service could flat out lie about the action taken and the FAA would be none the wiser. Maybe this happens a lot.

 

[JetPilot500]

Regarding the 3000ft seperation, who's responsibility is it to maintain that? The controllers? or yours? At a largers airport, it would be kinda tough to determine where 3000ft is, especially if your unfamiliar. If i touch down and the other airplane is only 2000ft down, who's in trouble? Me or the guy in the tower?

Brad G,

It is the controllers responsibility to maintain the 3000' Separation. You wouldn't be in trouble if there was a little less, but the controller could be. If you are "Cleared to Land" then do so, if you feel ok about it. Remember, you are the final authority to decide if you want to Go-Around. You will not find that in the FAR's, it is an ATC procedure. Got the info from a controller.

JetPilot500

 

[AHPilot]

As far as landing on the same runway with another plane---at the far end lets say....does this apply to uncontrolled airports as well??, and if so then it would be the pilot's responsibility....


Langston

 

[flywithastick]

does this apply to uncontrolled airports as well??

I'd guess 91.111 (a) "no person may operate an aircraft so close to another aircraft as to create a hazard" would govern this situation. Anyone know differently?

As far as landing separation, 3000' would give you enough room to land 4 or 5 J-3's, but it may not be enough for a L-39. just have to look closely, think clearly and be very comfortable with what you're flying before thinking about landing with someone else on the runway.

and if so then it would be the pilot's responsibility...

There'd be no one in a tower to blame it on at a non-towered (uncontrolled) field!

 

[ATCER]

I'm not a tower controller but had some training so here goes...

Anytime you want info on ATC rules check out the 7110.65 ATC manaul. This is the bible for ATC. You can see a copy of it online here -

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/

For same runway seperation see chapter 3 section 3-10-3.

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp3/atc0310.html#3-10-3

There are some nice diagrams with the above link.

Now for the clearance. The controller can clear you to land at anytime (as long as he/she feels they will have the required separation).

Many times a controller will anticipate seperation and issue the clearance to land. (see 3-10-6). Other times the controller may not be sure of the separation and hold off on it. They really are not supposed to withhold a clearance indefinitley but it does happen sometimes (not on purpose).

A note on separation errors. If the controler issues you a clearance that you follow and it leads to an error... it's the controllers error. If you deviate from a clearance or refuse a clearance it's your ticket... Also to note... if you are ever given a number to call by ATC... CALL. 99.9% of the time you will talk with someone and that will be the end of it. If you don't call your chances of being reported are about 100%.

Stay safe and if your curious about tower ops take a visit to one and chat with the controllers about this subject. About 5 months ago there was a Genot allowing tours of facilities again, all you need is to be a US citizen and make an appointment.