Cleared Direct Destination?

[KingAirer]

I understand that we can find out position through other means. Are you assured that your even going to be in range of other navagational aids while traveling on a direct route? No. Fixing your position and navagating are different. And by only being able to fix your position by approved methods you would be left to navigate with only the nonapproaved IFR handheld. What happens if you get a bad GPS signal? By taking this route you may not have an acceptable navagational facility in range.

VFR and Handhelds are not authorized for IFR NAVIGATION, instrument approaches, or as a Principal instrument flight reference. The may be used as an aid for situational awareness.

So again, my question, how are you going to navigate precicsely in a straight line, without GPS, with RNAV, without RADAR, in the clouds?

Look I understand how your able to work the system and follow the pink line on your handheld, but I dont think its legal or even smart. The controller doesnt care one way or the other and would love to say proceed direct and forget about you.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Before Rnav and GPS the only "direct" was to an ndb or vor. Sure there were and are guys who would take a guess and dead reckon, but why? And I sure as heck you wouldnt do that in a non-radar , or mountainous area. The only proper response to a direct clearance that you have no approved way of navigating to is to say "unable".

I mean thats the proper response. You could use a non-ifr approved gps if you want, understanding that thats not legal.
But it is just as easy to ask for vectors, or direct to something you CAN navigate to.


tarp, I have done stuff like that too... but I knew it wasn't right and that I was cheating. The right thing to do is remind the controller of your equipment type so he can offer proper clearances to you.

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

good question

yea, they'll tell you that, and then in a second say something like "oh, you're not slant golf, ummm...continue inbound"

so, if you're in and out of clouds on a federal airway in class E, then you're in conditions below VFR mins and are on an IFR plan, thus having to abide by IFR rules. if the GPS is not authorized for IFR use, your sh!t out of luck, can't do it (legally)
but then again,if you're between VORs (assuming they're not Terminals), you still got 80NM below 18K to track outbound from one and inbound to another, change over point being halfway

 

[Northern Lights]

The right thing to do is remind the controller of your equipment type so he can offer proper clearances to you.

Reminds me of a United 727 flight from DEN-MSP a few years ago...

Being a pilot nerd I had to listen to ATC on the headphones for the whole trip. After diverting around some t-storms we ended up comming into MSP more from the NW than SW.
ATC: United 123 proceed direct to GOLFF.
Pilot: "uh, center...we're a slant jurassic here"
ATC: [laughing] "United how about heading XXX for direct the field!"

 

[avbug]

Holy cow. There can't be that many kids here that believe this garbage. Can't go direct without rnav or gps? Unbelievable.

So long as you're in the service volume of any number of combination of navaids, you can navigate with those navaids where ever you like. The distance doesn't matter. If I can get between two fixes and make it to each fix, I can do it.

If I make two fixes five miles apart, and can navigate from A to B, then I can do it. If I make five hundred fixes five miles apart, then I can do twenty five hundred miles, reliably fixing my position every step of the way.

Didja know that you must be able to do that anyway, even with the magic fix-all rnav or other means...or didja just fly around blindly following the box and not backing it up?

The only proper response to a direct clearance that you have no approved way of navigating to is to say "unable".

No! I say again, no! Not so. For someone who never knew anything else, that may be the case. However, that's a competency issue. If you truly have no way of navigating, that's one thing...but if you're saying that you can't navigate because you don't have a computer to calculate what "direct" is for you...then you're experiencing a competency crisis. A little like those that can't fly "raw data."

And I sure as heck you wouldnt do that in a non-radar , or mountainous area.

A great deal of my flying has been in non-radar environments, including much of my IFR flying...and almost all of it has been in mountainous areas. My sympathy meter doesn't run too high for that kind of sentiment. Aside from that, radar or not, one can always assure terrain separation by applying the information at hand...assuming you can read a chart. Again, a competency issue.

I'm going to assume you're thinking that you wouldn't do it because you have other means. Not that you can't. If you can't, it's a severe competency issue. If you won't, that's fine. Two different things, and I'm going to assume that it's a "won't" issue rather than a can't. If you're saying that it can't be done, you're quite wrong.

so, if you're in and out of clouds on a federal airway in class E, then you're in conditions below VFR mins and are on an IFR plan, thus having to abide by IFR rules. if the GPS is not authorized for IFR use, your sh!t out of luck, can't do it (legally)

Again, you're kidding, right? If you're on the federal airway, and have no GPS or have a GPS not authorized for IFR, then what is the big deal? Fly the airway like we always have, since long before GPS or RNAV. In fact, it's no issue at all...we're talking about direct clearances, but if you're talking direct between fixes on a published route, you had for darn sure better be able to navigate. Can't do it legally? Criminey.

So again, my question, how are you going to navigate precicsely in a straight line, without GPS, with RNAV, without RADAR, in the clouds?

Right back at ya. I've asked you several times now, and if it's not immediately apparent, then again, it's a severe competency issue. You ARE joking, right??

Are you assured that your even going to be in range of other navagational aids while traveling on a direct route? No.

Again, that comes back to the competency issue, doesn't it? (yes)

Fixing your position and navagating are different.

They are? Perhaps you don't regularly fix your position as part of normal navigation. But you really should. Your GPS does this for you. Your FMS does this for you. But you can do it too. The FMS calculates your position constantly, using many means...not just GPS...and presents them to you in a format that provides for constant corrections on course. The competency issue comes in by not being able to do this for yourself. You can, legally, and you should be able to do so. The mind-numbing awesome navigational capabilities that much of our modern hardware holds, have simply turned our mental hardware to mush, that's all.

And by only being able to fix your position by approved methods you would be left to navigate with only the nonapproaved IFR handheld. What happens if you get a bad GPS signal?

That statement makes no sense. Who cares if you get a bad GPS signal, especially if you're using other approved means to fix your position, and to navigate? Further, if one is left to fix position by approved methods, how is it that you state one is only left to navigate with the "nonapproved IFR handheld?" If one is navigating by approved methods, then one IS navigating with something other than a non-TSO'd or certificated unit. Problem solved.

Is it possible that we've created such a small "box" to think in that we can no longer access our most basic navigational skills and work outside of it? I never thought I'd hear a professional pilot say such things...but it is a new world. Good grief.

 

[KingAirer]

I think SCtt@NJ and I are thinking along the same lines. To be able to deterimine your position accurately using traditional means, other than seeing the ground, your going to need two of someting. Two VORs, VOR and NDB, VOR/DME etc... Are you sure that if you take this direct route you will have acceptable nav aids along the route? If youve done your homework ahead of time, maybe. But even then You are going to have your hands full trying to draw a stright line from point a to B with off route VORs.
You are correct that if you can determine your position then you would be legal. However, can you really be assured that you are on course at all times and on the straight line between your starting and ending point?

Good discussion guys.

 

[bigD]

Avbug, are you a ghost? Because you sound EXACTLY like my late grandfather.

When I was a student pilot, I remember sitting in my grandparents' living room reading about navigation via VOR. Gramps sat down next to me, took out a piece of paper, and drew a top down view of an airplane, an airport some distance away, and a VOR somewhere as well (but not directly between the airplane and airport).

He asked me, "Okay, tell me how you'd get to the airport if there were no landmarks on the ground to guide you." So I took a ruler and found the radial off the VOR for the airport, then told Gramps that I'd fly to the VOR, and then fly the radial from the VOR until I'm over the airport.

Now I don't remember the exact rant I received (it was 10 years ago), but Avbug's response certainly caused some deja vu! Lots of use of the words "you kids", "in my day", and something about being able to do this "all while being shot at by the Japs".

Anyway, he didn't give me the answer, but instead insisted that I stay in the living room for however long it took me to figure out how to get there in a straight line.

Heh. D*mn I miss him.

 

[avbug]

I am your grandfather. Sit up straight when I'm talking to you. In my day we didn't have computers and didn't need them. We used pen knives and carved in the palms of ourhands. And we were grateful. Sometimes we didn't have pen knives, we used broken glass, and I can tell you we were lucky to have glass. Used to be sod, instead. And we didn't have palms most of the time, because they were too scarred and bloody from working in the field. We had to scribble on goats hooves, and we were grateful for the goats. In fact, I loved those goats. Too often, some said, but I really loved those goats...

One way of thinking that's not often presented, is simply getting from A to B without all the extra gear. If you're on the 180 radial of XYZ VOR, and want to get direct to a point on the 090 radial, it's not that hard. If you're 60 miles south, and want to go direct to a fix 30 miles east, it's simple. Without even having to do a lot of math, even.

Sixty is twice as far south, as you want to go east. Pick a point on your VOR navhead that's a thumb width down from the middle part of the instrument. Set your heading in the OBS. Now pick a point that's half a thumb width to the right of the center of the instrument. Now draw a line between them. Now draw a line parallel to that, which intersects the middle of the instrument.

The number over which that line passes on the upper right hand portion of the OBS dial will be the heading to which you must turn to go direct. Problem solved.

Now wind may affect that a bit, but you can account for wind very quickly, especially when making a series of such calculations as you move along. Just like DR navigation, updating fixes continuously means that your nav should get more and more precise as you fly...and yes, you can get there from here.

If you can draw a line on a chart, and then determine that you're staying on that line by running constant checks and then making the requisite corrections, you've met the requirements of the regulation. You're running a safe ship, and it's been done for a long time.

And yes, I'm grateful.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Ok Avbug, you go ahead and do that when you are cleared direct to white intersection coming out on the Teterboro Five departure with no rnav or gps. Ya right. Lets get real shall we?

 

[StarChecker]

I flew the TEB 5 every night for over a year, single-pilot and was cleared direct everywhere, often with two VOR's and a DME. Get your chart out, pick a heading, and wait to get yelled at. Otherwise....you're doing fine.