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Clearance Times

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Brett Hull

Pastafarian
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
970
I was under the assumption, quite possibly wrong, that the two hours that a clearance is valid for starts over when you pick it up from clearance delivery.

Yesterday, for example, we filed for a 1500 departure. The boss called and said she was going to be 2 hours late (1700 departure). I didn't re-file because I thought if I picked the clearance up at 1600, It would be good until 1800. This has worked for me before, until yesterday. As we were taxiing out at @ 1710, ground told us to call clearance back because we timed out. Thankfully, he re-filed for us. Is this just a MEM thing, or am I nuts?
 
i'm not an expert on this, but i think the two hours is divided by a half hour early and one point five hours after your proposed. So you were a half hour past getting your clearance.
 
The above post is correct. 30 minutes prior to your proposed departure time, FSS transmits your clearance to the airport/center where you are departing. Say an hour and twenty minutes later you pick up your clearance. Sometimes, ATC (ground, tower, clearance delivery, ARTCC) will, by their good nature, update your departure so your flight plan will remain valid. However, due to workload or whatever reason, if they don't update the time, ten minutes after you picked up your clearance, it can still drop out of the system.

2000Flyer
 
time filed for = 1200z.....

you can pick it ups at 1130z and is good until 13:30z
then it drops out and ATC has to ammend the propozed time or let it time out and then you have to refile
 
My experience has been this: the amount of time a clearance is held after being given is dependent upon the issuing facility. I don't know the exact criteria, but basically, the higher the number of movements, the shorter the "hold" time. In other words, you can expect for it to be there for two hours at Athens, but only for thirty minutes at Hartsfield. The problem comes from the limited number of squak codes available to each facility. If they come up short of codes, they take away one that has sat the longest after being delivered.

regards,
enigma
 
Not true......Hartsfield is too busy and really doesn't have time to look at a strip that is about to time out and jump on the FDIO and change the proposed off time. They have more important things to do. Athens being a great deal slower has time to ammend proposed times.

as for the xpdr codes. Atlanta Tracon and Atlanta ARTCC would have an unbeliveble amounts of designated xpdr codes. I can almost guarantee that isnt the case.
 
It all depends on whether the facilities will update your clearance or make you refile. Its just like whether a cop feels like giving you a tix for speeding or not. My experience has been 2 hours from the time you file, and they update it with a call...Also there are plenty of codes..4096 to be exact..
 
In Canada you can pick up your clearance 45 minutes prior to departure. I found this out after flying to Calgary and Vancouver for awhile from SLC. I have no idea though how long it lasts before it times out.
 
OK, here's the deal. First, a refresher from the AIM:

5-1-11. Change in Proposed Departure Time

a. To prevent computer saturation in the en route environment, parameters have been established to delete proposed departure flight plans which have not been activated. Most centers have this parameter set so as to delete these flight plans a minimum of 1 hour after the proposed departure time. To ensure that a flight plan remains active, pilots whose actual departure time will be delayed 1 hour or more beyond their filed departure time, are requested to notify ATC of their departure time.

b. Due to traffic saturation, control personnel frequently will be unable to accept these revisions via radio. It is recommended that you forward these revisions to the nearest FSS.



Note that the minimum is 1 hour, but many Centers set the time-out parameters to 2 hours. And YES, when the NAS is busy, the Centers do run short of codes.

Getting your clearance does not automatically "re-set" the time-out clock. That's based strictly on your filed departure time. (P-time) Yes it IS true, that many ground controllers (he normally gets the strip after Clearance Delivery has issued it) will update the time if he notices it's about to time out. I'll personally update it once, IF I notice it. If you're three or more hours late taxiing though, I won't update the silly thing all day, UNLESS you call me or Clearance to ask us to. On the other hand, it's very easy for a busy ground controller to miss a clearance about to time out. If you're going to be more than an hour later than your P-time, simply flip the avionics master on, call Clearance or Ground, and ask them to update the thing. Takes 30 seconds. What else you got to do while waiting for the Boss to show? :D

Now, if the Wx is lousy, and we're running lots of ground delays, the Centers often re-set the time-out parameters to 3-4 hours for the day, or afternoon. If you get an Expect Departure Clearance Time, (EDCT) 2-3 hours after your P-time, you clearance **SHOULD** still be good at the EDCT time. Once in a great while, something happens and it drops anyway, but that's rare. If there's some other sort of delay program, like a reservation program in effect, and you're being delayed a substantial time, it would be a good idea to remind Clearance to keep your flight plan active.

As far as Clearance re-filing for you, I'll generally do it if it's something relatively simple and remains domestic. If it's international, forget it. You really need to re-file everything with AFSS. If you want to file something complicated or very detailed, it may be best if you re-file with AFSS.

Now, understand that how you file with FSSS and how Clearance delivery enters a "flight plan" is two separate things. The only thing Clearance can enter via an FDIO (Flight Data In-Out) terminal is :

A/C ID
Type
TAS
Dep Airport
Est Dep Time
Altitude
Route and Destination.

Note that there's no provision in FDIO for any SAR stuff like color of aircraft, fuel on board, number of bodies, alternates etc. We can enter **Simple** remarks in field 11, but it needs to be about 25 characters or less. If you want the SAR stuff filed for ANY reason, you'll need to file with FSS or DUATS again.

If you're a GA pilot about to blast off into bad/deteriorating WX, I may insist you re-file with AFSS just to get a current WX update. If you're a 121 or 135 operator, I'll figure you're a big boy or girl, and got a stack of Sigmets and CWAs from ops anyway.;)

Hope that helps.:p
 
Anyone know more about DEN? I called ATC there to extend our plan and I believe they told me they hold them for 4 hours. The weather was bad that night, don't know if that changed things or not.
 
kevdog said:
Anyone know more about DEN? I called ATC there to extend our plan and I believe they told me they hold them for 4 hours. The weather was bad that night, don't know if that changed things or not.

I would imagine they had re-set time time-out parameters Denver Center for the evening to four hours because of extensive delays. Probably was back to two hours the next morning. But it's an adjustable paramenter at each Center.
 
OAKLAND CENTER holds them for 1:30 minutes, then call me on the shout line to find out why the hell this guy hasn't taken off yet. Usually a pretty easy fix, they just ammend the proposed departure time on the FDIO. I'ts a pretty simple entry into the computer but if the controllers are busy more then likely they are gonna require that you refile with FSS.

My beef with the fido is this...its a security issue in my book.

they can easily put any flight plan in the system for anyone who just runs a popup....Just like a VFR on top or whatever.

the fdio doest have parameters for pilots name, souls on board etc.....

So anyone can call up Clnce and say, do you have time to make a flightplan for me, then all they need is AC type, N number or callsign, speed, altitude, route and destination. Thats it and its in the system. I personally see that as a security issue that some facilties local orders should state that if you want a clearance you should go through the proper channels, but exceptions can be made. Anyone on a VFR flight plan that gets into some adverse IFR weather.....easily put in the system but enroute you should be able to get a hold of a FSS station.
 
Lrjtcaptain said:

as for the xpdr codes. Atlanta Tracon and Atlanta ARTCC would have an unbeliveble amounts of designated xpdr codes. I can almost guarantee that isnt the case.

Too bad that you posted before Vector4fun posted, had you waited you could have avoid the last statement.

Vector4fun, thanks for the good info. Your probably the controller who explained that to me on freq one day when I sat at Mueller waiting for the boss , hour after hour after hour, etc.


regards,
8N
 
To prevent computer saturation in the en route environment, parameters have been established to delete proposed departure flight plans which have not been activated
Thats why I always shot gun a bunch of clearances out there. Prevents computer saturation AND keeps me from having to file on the ground over fss. They should delete them flight plans after 15 minutes, so I can file some more computer saturation saving clearances.
 

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