Clearance limit

[manic66]

Situation.

Cleared to Boise Seattle 3 departure as filed

once airborne clearance is received direct Boise
Do I proceed to the airport or to the Boise VOR?

Please reference with AIM I cant find it.

(Clarifying with ATC has given me both answers so I'd like to find the AIM reference for this)

M

 

[regionalcap]

I don't have the plates for that part of the country, but I would say direct to the VOR. I wouldn't think you could accept an IFR clearance direct to an airport without GPS capability. Sometimes we are cleared visually to an airport but we would have to maintain VFR conditions. My opinion, go direct to the VOR. Sorry I don't have the FAR/AIM handy.

 

[manic66]

Hmmm ok
The airplane has dual FMS and we are authorized to use it in class I airspace.
Still looking in the AIM


M

 

[flydog]

Cleared direct Boise as filed. That doesnt sound like direct the VOR or the airport unless thats how you filed. I would fly what you filed after the departure. I dont see any clearance limit

Did I miss something?

 

[MarineKC130]

The controller wouldn't say "direct as filed." This would be a complete contradiction. I think from looking at the original post, he was cleared direct Boise. I believe that this would mean direct the NAVAID. Generally you are cleared to the navaid or IAF serving an approach at the field so that if you go IMC and lost comm, you can commence the approach at your clearance limit IAW lost comm procedures. Direct the airport would be of no use to you or ATC in such a situation. I found this in the PCG:

DIRECT- Straight line flight between two navigational aids, fixes, points, or any combination thereof. When used by pilots in describing off-airway routes, points defining direct route segments become compulsory reporting points unless the aircraft is under radar contact.

This is pretty vague, but I would think that they are looking for navaids or route structure, etc, not geograpic points such as airports or visual landmarks. Also, I think they would clear you direct "Boise airport" if that is where they want you to go.

Here's an example out of the FAA ATC Order:

Cessna 21A has been cleared to the Airville Airport via V41 Delta VOR V174 Alfa VOR, direct Airville Airport, maintain 9000.

Note the "direct Airville Airport" wording. In looking through the pubs, I can't find anything really black and white, but in all the sections about direct routing, only fixes and navaids are discusses. There's nothing about airports, etc. All the pubs are available on the FAA website, which is really nice, esp for looking at the ATC pubs. The address for the atc pubs is below.

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/

 

[manic66]

Well I would still like to get the wrtten reference since I have gotten either direct the VOR or direct the airport as an answer.

As always I did ask ATC what they wanted and they have given me either answer as well.

I agree with the FAF theory, you need a place to start the approach. But also I have read some where (still trying to find it) that when You are cleared to an airport and become lostcomm that You are allowed to fly to the airport and pick a FAF of your choice and fly an approach of your choice.

To clarify the situation on what I was filed for KSEA.SEA V4.BOI.KBOI
And clearance to BOI Seasttle3 departure As filed.

Climbing out of 15000 ATC clears me "direct Boise"

The VOR is only a few miles of the field so it wont matter that much which I pick, but I'd still like to know and I need specific reference.

Also for reference I can accept a clearance direct to the airport with my onboard equipment.

Certain airports Butte (KBTM) and lewiston KLWS does not have a VOR on the field or nearby with the same name. There for in that case the airport is the only thing in my clearance, so that will be my destination.

Confused yet?

I am

M

 

[PHX767]

This comes up a lot flying all nighters to the East Coast.

The controller says, "Cleared direct Orlando." I ask, "Is that the VOR or the airport?"

Sometimes they will come back with "Cleared direct destination", other times, "uhhh, the VOR", or "yeah, uhh the airport." They have no standard, so ask.

At a lot of those destinations it's all academic as they will put you back on the STAR anyway when you get closer. But for less busy destinations, you can get direct the airport until close enough to take a visual or an IAP. For instance, you can get direct to Jackson Hole, but you have to go to the VOR (I forget the name) anyway to do the approach.

What do you do for IFR lost comm? If your last clearance is to the airport, how do you get established on an approach? That's why I feel more comfortable going to the VOR, if it is an IAF. If not, ask for a fix on the approach.

 

[manic66]

Lost comm cleared to the airport I would fly to a FAF on my favorite approach and then fly the appproach, land and do all the checklists and then call maintainence and ATC.

m(Still looking for printed matter ond the question)

 

[MTOP_set]

This comes under the heading of know what you are asking for. Know your destination weather. Know what the approach options are. Know the relation of the navaid to the airport and available approaches. Then when you get a direct clearamce, get the verification of the destination that "you" want. If the weather is good for example and you anticipate a visual approach, ask to go to the airport. If in doubt, ask to go to the navaid, or even the IAF if you are able and it is something other than a VOR (an intersection or fix). With the proliferation of improved nav systems there will be more and more direct routings. Ask for what you want, know what you are asking for.

 

[manic66]

All I am asking for is a printed reference for this.

I know what I need to do "ask" but I want a reference.

 

[InHot]

Cleared Direct

Hey manic,

Great question. I imagine each of us has had this happen at one time or another.

I don't have the "textbook"answer with references, but I hope someone does and will clue us all in.

Hey AVBUG! Where are you when we need you?


My conjecture:

In your example:

To clarify the situation on what I was filed for KSEA.SEA V4.BOI.KBOI

The controller says "cleared "direct Boise." My assumption is that you are cleared to the airport becaue he did not give any clearance beyond "Direct Boise". Had he wanted you to go direct to the VOR he would have said:' Cleared direct to Boise, then as filed." (Boise VOR, Direct KBOI).

Of course, my .02 and I don't have a specific reference.

As to the issue of lost comm when cleared direct to an airport, that is covered explicitly in FAR 91.185 IFR operations: Two-way radio communications failure, sub para (c) (3):

Leave clearance limit.
(i) When the clearance limit is a fix from which an approach begins, commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or if one has not been received, as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route.
(ii) If the clearance limit is not a fix from which an approach begins (ie; KBOS), leave the clearance limit at the expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or if none has been received, upon arrival over the clearance limit, and proceed to a fix from which an approach begins and commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route.

What approach do you shoot? Well, under Lost Comm you can shoot any approach for your destionation:

...proceed to a fix from which an approach begins and commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route.

.

OK Avbug over to you.

 

[manic66]

Thanks InHot

Well what You are writing is what I think is correct, but I got dinged by a checked airman for the above situation.

Didn't argue though but I'd like to think I am right.

M
(You fly for SWA? - I hope I get there one day)

 

[avbug]

Inhot pretty much covered it, and there's really nothing to add. The specifics of your clearance in this case, while vague, lie in the way you filed. If you filed to Boise via the VOR, then you could reasonably expect "Direct Boise" to indicate that you should fly to the VOR. However, in this case, it appears that you probably filed to the airport, as it's your destination.

If you filed to Boise Airterminal, then the clearance "Direct Boise" gives the airport as your clearance limit.

I get direct clearances like this all the time. In cases where the VOR or other navaid is colocated with the airport, it really doesn't make much difference until you're directly on top of the navaid. In Boise, the VOR is .8 nm SE of the airport, so it's not a big deal.

Generally when given direct to a VOR that might be confused with the airport, you'll hear "Direct Boise VOR."

As a sidenote, if on approaching Boise, you are "Cleared Approach, Boise," you may pick any approach, and your clearance limit becomes the missed approach fix (if provided) for the approach you select. If assigned a specific approach, your clearance limit in communication will be the missed hold or fix for the approach assigned.