Class C ATC Question....

[smokinhole]

I have a question about descending through class C when arriving at a uncontrolled destination airport underlying the outer 2400' shelf.

Lately I have been flying a few VFR trips into a uncontrolled field under the outer shelf at a class c airport. It seems like some controllers will stay in radio contact while I descend through the class c shelf and then turn me loose to unicom 5 or so miles out from the uncontrolled field. Lately I've been getting one guy that likes to terminate radar service while I'm about a 3500' and 1 mile away from penetrating the upper class c layer on my descent to said uncontrolled field.

My question is, am I still cleared to penetrate the class c veil on my descent? Or, did I just lose my clearance and now I have to turn 90 degrees and make a rapid descent to get under the veil and procede to the field?

I say that since I was talking to the controller on a discrete code I meet the requirements of the regs for entering class c enroute to the underlying airport unless it is stated "N123 remain clear of class c".

It seems like a basic question but, I've recieved different answers from multiple sources and now I'm confused!

Thanks,
S.H.

 

[minitour]

Well...here's what I got....

You don't need a clearance to enter Class C airspace...just two way radio communication (they've gotta say your call sign). So you can't lose your clearance.

Here's what I'm going by for the next stuff, so if I'm not understanding it correctly, disregard what I'm putting up.

You are saying that you're outside (horizontally) of the upper level of the Class C airspace when at 3,500'?

If so, you're 1 mile from the upper level and descending through 3,500' to the airport?

All I can think if thats the case, you aren't "maintaining" two way radio communication, so no, you can not enter the Class C airspace...you've got to descend under it and then proceed.

If you want to go through it, I would just clarify with the controller when he gives you the "Squawk VFR....." speal...

Just read back with "Roger, N12345, squawking VFR, understand cleared through the Class C airspace descending to KJWI airport."

If he doesn't want you going through the Class C airspace, that way he'll tell you. But I'd bet he thinks either you'll get under it in time, or doesn't want you in it.

-mini

 

[smokinhole]

Well...here's what I got....

You don't need a clearance to enter Class C airspace...just two way radio communication (they've gotta say your call sign). So you can't lose your clearance.

-mini

You are correct, I don't need a clearance. I guess my question is as follows. Does the previous "radio contact"(now terminated) still count as my ticket into the class c veil.

My preference is to maintain a smooth descent profile to the field and avoid mixing with the traffic transitioning underneath the veil as much as possible. I can't believe that at approx 30 seconds prior to airspace penetration the controller could expect me to not only descend 1000' and/or turn 90 degrees to avoid the class c without some kind of prior warning.

99% of the time I'm able to fly a standard descent into the class C and then terminate service when I get closer to the uncontrolled field. There is just this one controller that kicks me off to unicom right before the edje of the airspace which would cause me to do some serious maneuvering to avoid violating his airspace. When there is not much traffic in the area I like to go to the unicom as soon as practicable to get a good picture of whats goin on at the field.........but this is ridiculous.

For what is worth, this is happening in a Citation.

Thanks
S.H.

 

[minitour]

You are correct, I don't need a clearance. I guess my question is as follows. Does the previous "radio contact"(now terminated) still count as my ticket into the class c veil.

My preference is to maintain a smooth descent profile to the field and avoid mixing with the traffic transitioning underneath the veil as much as possible. I can't believe that at approx 30 seconds prior to airspace penetration the controller could expect me to not only descend 1000' and/or turn 90 degrees to avoid the class c without some kind of prior warning.

99% of the time I'm able to fly a standard descent into the class C and then terminate service when I get closer to the uncontrolled field. There is just this one controller that kicks me off to unicom right before the edje of the airspace which would cause me to do some serious maneuvering to avoid violating his airspace. When there is not much traffic in the area I like to go to the unicom as soon as practicable to get a good picture of whats goin on at the field.........but this is ridiculous.

For what is worth, this is happening in a Citation.

Thanks
S.H.

I guess that helps paint a little bigger picture...

When he sends you to unicom, does he terminate radar services? or just send you over?

It just depends on what he says, really...

IOW
Ctrl: "Citation 12345, frequency change approved"

I've got you on radar, I'm controlling you, but you may contact unicom for an airport advisory...

Ctrl: "Citation 12345, radar services terminated, squawk vfr, frequency change approved"

I've still most likely got a primary target (ATC guys - true or not?), but I don't want to/don't have time to work you, I don't need to see your mode C because you are landing anyway, and you may contact whoever the hell you want to because I've got other traffic to worry about.


Since you're going in there VFR, my guess is its one of these two scenarios...

But, like I said, the best way to make sure is to ask if you don't know...

Sorry, I realize this probably isn't much help, but its all I can think of. I'm sure the ATC guys on here can help a little bit more than I. Perhaps you could even call that particular Class C facility and see what their take on the matter is. Good luck with finding the "right" answer and let me know once you do!

-mini

 

[smokinhole]

I guess that helps paint a little bigger picture...

When he sends you to unicom, does he terminate radar services? or just send you over?

It just depends on what he says, really...


Ctrl: "Citation 12345, radar services terminated, squawk vfr, frequency change approved"


-mini

Those are the majic words I've recieved. If I wasn't so 20 seconds away from busting his airspace I would normally think I have to remain clear. But, since I'm obviously planning on transitioning through his domain why the heck would he turn me loose so close? Maybe the guy is new, I don't see how it makes his life any easier or on the other hand, be any extra work for him to allow me to transition his airspace for another minute or two. I'll have to give em a call next time and ask what the drill is. Beats filling out a ASRS form.........

Regards,
S.H.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Look at the law this way.

Suppose you have second airport (i.e. not the primary airport) that falls inside the inner part of a class c area.

The regs say that you may take off already inside the class c as long as you make contact asap after takeoff.

Using this logic, we can reasonably conclude that he is not intending to cut you loose and have you deviate at the last possible second. You DID establish comm PRIOR to entering. That is what the reg states. It says nothing about still being in communication at the exact moment of penetration (I love saying that). I know I'm not always feeling real comminicative at that moment myself...

AAAAnyway,

He switched you to advisory. I guess I woulda gone for the airport without much thought.

 

[minitour]

100LL

It doesn't say you have to be in comm at the exact "moment of penetration" but you do have to "maintain two way radio communications"...

I would have thought "getting the boot", as it were, from ATC would indicate not be maintaining radio communication...

However, thats a great point about the whole "establish communications as soon as practical..." thing...

Great thread, very interesting!

-mini

 

[smokinhole]

We have a winner......

Well, I gave the Feds a call this morning and 100LL is correct. They said that the fact that ATC has terminated radar service outside the class c does not preclude me from transitioning enroute to the uncontrolled field underneath.

The basic premise of thier argument is that I established radio contact and that counts as my meeting the class c entrance req. per the FAR. Regardless of whether they terminate my radar service prior to my penetration of the class C.

Now the next question is.........how far out in miles or time can you expect this rule to apply? At what point does this rule no longer apply? 3mi, 5mi, 10mi? At some point this basic argument become moot and you would have to contact ATC again to meet the entrance requirements?

I'm stretching it with this last question........curiosity and coffee have gotten the best of me this morning

S.H.