Class B IFR/IFR general shtuff

[minitour]

Class B airspace...gotta have the clearance into the Bravo...

so...when you're IFR is your initial IFR Clearance considered your clearance into the bravo (i.e. you file CAK to CLE direct and you get "cleared to Cleveland as filed" means you are cleared into the bravo?)???

Also if you get a clearance limit which is outside the bravo and you lose com...you can leave the fix at the EFC time right? so do you continue into the Bravo if you haven't received that in your clearance because you filed it?

What if you're VFR On Top?

My assumption is that in the first scenario you've been cleared into the Class B so you're okay and in scenario two, you've filed it so they're expecting you there anyway because they have your strip...but im not sure...for VFR on top i have no clue

Sorry if these are stupid questions...thanks for the help

-mini

PS Anyone recommend any FARs to memorize...currently starting the IFR training and after that gonna complete everything up to the II...maybe MEI later...so if anything I can memorize now to help me out later Id appreciate the help...

PS x2 sorry for the poopy grammar/spelling

 

[pilotman2105]

so...when you're IFR is your initial IFR Clearance considered your clearance into the bravo (i.e. you file CAK to CLE direct and you get "cleared to Cleveland as filed" means you are cleared into the bravo?)???

That is my understanding.

91.185 for reference.

Also if you get a clearance limit which is outside the bravo and you lose com...you can leave the fix at the EFC time right?

Not you can. You should. Same reg number.

so do you continue into the Bravo if you haven't received that in your clearance because you filed it?

Unless you have been assigned a different clearance, on a radar vector that keeps you outside, or an advised route that keeps you outside. Same reg number.

What if you're VFR On Top?

VFR-on-top is an IFR clearance. It just leaves the responsibility for altitude and directoinal assignment to the pilot, and does not involve ATC as much.

5-5-5 in the AIM.

Sorry if these are stupid questions...thanks for the help

While there are stupid questions, these are not them. Lots of people are confused with these things.

Anyone recommend any FARs to memorize...currently starting the IFR training and after that gonna complete everything up to the II...maybe MEI later...so if anything I can memorize now to help me out later Id appreciate the help...

Don't memorize. Just keep your nose in the book and learn. Something that is helpful is to type notes on all relevant regs.

 

[JimNtexas]

In practice class B doesn't mean anything when you're IFR. While IFR you always have a clearance to somewhere, you dont need to listen for any magic words. If they want you to hold, they'll give you vectors or put you in a holding pattern.

It is far easier to fly IFR into Class B than it is to go there VFR.

 

[avbug]

When operating under instrument flight rules and under an IFR clearance, additional airspace clearances are not required. When one has been admitted by clearance into the National Airspace System, one has clearance to fly per that allowed by ATC.

If ATC clears you as filed to an airport in Class B airspace, you're cleared into that airspace, and through any airspace that lies along that route (unless the clearance is later ammended, in which case you are cleared as ammended).

If operating VFR-on-top, you are operating under an IFR clearance, and must operate in accordance with the clearance as received. If cleared VFR-on-top to an airport within Class B airspace, then you are cleared to that airport, period. You must maintain VFR cloud clearances, but you have already received your clearance.

This applies weather communciations are lost, or not. However, if you are in a lost comm situation, and you are able to maintain VFR, you should refrain from visiting a busy terminal area unless no other option exists. You're far better to remain VFR, get to a place where you can communicate (probably on the ground, considering lack of airborne communications capability in a lost comm situation), and let ATC know what your condition is.

To simplify and clarify, however, if you are operating under IFR and have a clearance to XXX airport in Class B airspace, you're cleared there period, regardless of the operating condition of your communication equipment, and regardless of weather you're strictly IFR, or VFR-on-top (an IFR clearance).

If you begin a flight under IFR with a clearance to XXX airport within Class B airspace, you are cleared to that airport. However, if you cancel the flight plan (cancel IFR) prior to reaching that airspace, you must obtain a specific Class B clearance prior to entry. This is applicable even if you are in contact with ATC (vis a vis VFR radar advisories, or "flight following," which does not imply or provide by itself any clearance).

To better understand the concept, what is required to operate in Class B airspace isn't a Class B clearance, but an ATC clearance. There is no such thing as a "Class B clearance." Only an ATC clearance to operate in Class B airspace.

When operating under IFR, you are already operating under an ATC clearance, and do not require additional redundant airspace clearances while enroute. You're already in the system. You do not need additional clearances to cross restricted airspace, temporary flight restrictions, or any other airspace, so long as ATC as the controlling agency puts you there.

 

[Lead Sled]

As per the usual, Avbug gave a great explination. That's one of the nice things about flying on an IFR clearance - you normally don't have to worry about coordinating or arranging clearances. However, it is helpful if you pay attention to whose airspace you happen to be in and where you're going. It's not uncommon for ATC to screw up and not make the proper or timely handoff. A couple of examples would be descending out of the enroute phase into the terminal area. How many times have you guys had XYZ Center forget to hand you off to approach or had Approach fail to hand you over to Tower? Any time you are transitioning between sectors or entering new airspace there is a possiblity that someone will drop the ball.

Lead Sled

 

[seethru]

Minitour



To answer your last question about studying suggestions:



Crack open your FAR/AIM to one of the first couple of pages. There you will find a suggested study list of FAR Parts and AIM Paragraphs that are pertinent to the rating you are going for. At least this is in the ASA version, but I think you’ll find it in all versions.



Hope this helps.



Greg

 

[minitour]

Minitour



To answer your last question about studying suggestions:



Crack open your FAR/AIM to one of the first couple of pages. There you will find a suggested study list of FAR Parts and AIM Paragraphs that are pertinent to the rating you are going for. At least this is in the ASA version, but I think you’ll find it in all versions.



Hope this helps.



Greg

*he blows the dust off the book to open it and...*

HEY There it is, sweet!

Thanks!

-mini

 

[igneousy2]

This applies weather communciations are lost, or not. However, if you are in a lost comm situation, and you are able to maintain VFR, you should refrain from visiting a busy terminal area unless no other option exists. You're far better to remain VFR, get to a place where you can communicate (probably on the ground, considering lack of airborne communications capability in a lost comm situation), and let ATC know what your condition is.

It is not a choice...if you loose comms in VFR you MUST remain VFR...if you encounter VFR along the way to your destination...you MUST remain VFR.

91.185 IFR operations: Two-way radio communications failure.
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each pilot who has two-way radio communications failure when operating under IFR shall comply with the rules of this section.

(b) VFR conditions. If the failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if VFR conditions are encountered after the failure, each pilot shall continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable.

I use to hammer guys on this all the time on Instrument Checkrides...They would know the altitude rules, the route rules, when to leave the fix, etc. like the back of their hand but often wouldn't know about the requirement to stay VFR. Rule 1 if you loose comms during IFR is that if you encounter VFR you STAY VFR.

Later

 

[avbug]

I never said it was a choice. However, seeing as you brought it up...

Departing a busy terminal area, one experiences a lost communication situation. It could be a bad ATC transmitter. It could be a stuck microphone. It could be an aircraft antenna problem. Really doesn't matter; the point being you can't communicate. Departing on a published proceedure in congested airspace, you find that for a short portion of that routing, you are in the clear. Do you continue the departure out of the congested airspace, or immediately divert to remain in the clear.

If you divert to remain in the clear, indeed if everyone did this during a stuck mic or similiar situation, multiple disasters would be a high probability.

One is far better off continuing the routing to a less congested location where one can still exercise the option of diverting under VFR if such conditions are encountered.

One is enroute and finds VFR while experiencing an inability to communicate. Under the circumstances in this example, to maintain VFR, fuel reserves would be compromised. No immediate acceptable landing site is available, nor would a divert produce one. In such a situation, again, one may be better off continuing the route structure.

An appropriate alternative may be available under VFR, or it may not. The specific circumstances dictate what will be done, not a blanket edict to remain VFR at all costs. Accordingly, I worded my statement that "you're far better to remain VFR..." rather than simply state that one must remain VFR.

One must consider the circumstances and apply some common sense. Safety of flight is always paramount, above any standard requirements such as this to remain VFR.

 

[Lead Sled]

One must consider the circumstances and apply some common sense. Safety of flight is always paramount, above any standard requirements such as this to remain VFR.

I agree with your thoughts. It doesn't take much imagination to come up with a scenario where it would be preferable, from a safety of flight point of view, to continue - especially at night. Remember, the PIC is the final authority and is allowed to deviate from the regs if necessary. This is one of those cases where it might easily be justified. Just be sure you can justify your actions.

One thing's for sure, once ATC realizes that they're not talking with you and that they can't reestablish contact, they are going to clear the airspace around you. If they get concerned enough, it will be just you and the F-16 escorts. They'll let you know where they would like you to land.

 

[igneousy2]

I never said it was a choice. However, seeing as you brought it up...

I was merely pointing out that many instrument students/pilots forget that it IS required under the regs to stay VFR and if you don't you better be able to explain it.

Departing a busy terminal area, one experiences a lost communication situation. It could be a bad ATC transmitter. It could be a stuck microphone. It could be an aircraft antenna problem. Really doesn't matter; the point being you can't communicate. Departing on a published proceedure in congested airspace, you find that for a short portion of that routing, you are in the clear. Do you continue the departure out of the congested airspace, or immediately divert to remain in the clear.

I disagree with you...I would not continue into IMC if I was VFR (not just in the clear for a brief moment) if their was a stuck mic on the frequency ESPECIALLY in congested airspace. I've flown for years in the Northeast (BOS, JFK, EWR, LGA, PHL, DCA...) and REALLY would not trust SIDS/STARS and 5 minute old vectors to keep me seperated from other aircraft. IFR clearences protect seperation in the event a single aircraft loses communication. The system does little to protect aircraft from communication failures of multiple aircraft.

If you divert to remain in the clear, indeed if everyone did this during a stuck mic or similiar situation, multiple disasters would be a high probability.

I don't buy this...if you are in VMC you are required to see & avoid regardless. Better to See & Avoid then pray the controller had positive seperation of his traffic prior to the comm failure.

One is far better off continuing the routing to a less congested location where one can still exercise the option of diverting under VFR if such conditions are encountered.

One is enroute and finds VFR while experiencing an inability to communicate. Under the circumstances in this example, to maintain VFR, fuel reserves would be compromised. No immediate acceptable landing site is available, nor would a divert produce one. In such a situation, again, one may be better off continuing the route structure.

Under the above scenario you would still be required to continue under VFR until you ACTUALLY do have a FUEL EMERGENCY in which case you could attempt an instrument approach under your emergency authority. Going into your fuel reserves is understandable during these circumstances and precisely the reason you have fuel RESERVES. 45 minutes is a planning minimum...the regulations do not require you to LAND with 45 minutes in the tank.

An appropriate alternative may be available under VFR, or it may not. The specific circumstances dictate what will be done, not a blanket edict to remain VFR at all costs. Accordingly, I worded my statement that "you're far better to remain VFR..." rather than simply state that one must remain VFR.

One must consider the circumstances and apply some common sense. Safety of flight is always paramount, above any standard requirements such as this to remain VFR.

I think we pretty much agree on the general principals even though our actions during specific situations would vary, however, I fear many pilots would interpret your statements too loosely and get themselves into trouble. The REGULATIONS dictate you MUST remain VFR unless you have a very good reason not to.

If you do continue on your IFR flight plan after encountering VFR conditions, you need to have a good reason. If you flew by 3 airports reporting severe clear on your way to shooting an approach at your destination you WILL be hanged from the highest tree if the FAA catches wind of the situation.

Later

 

[avbug]

Under the above scenario you would still be required to continue under VFR until you ACTUALLY do have a FUEL EMERGENCY in which case you could attempt an instrument approach under your emergency authority. Going into your fuel reserves is understandable during these circumstances and precisely the reason you have fuel RESERVES. 45 minutes is a planning minimum...the regulations do not require you to LAND with 45 minutes in the tank.

Don't be a bloody idiot. You can't possibly be suggesting that one should create an emergency in order to be excused from compliance with the requirement to remain VFR.

Any rational, intelligent pilot can reasonably forecast the liklihood of creating a fuel emergency, and not create it in the first place. To do so would be a violation of 91.13. Why even go there?

A pilot is expected to conduct the flight with an eye to safety at all times. There are circumstances under which remaining on the flight plan or clearance is preferable to diverting. Period.

Squawk 7600, and go fly, conditions dependant.

It should be pointed out that the FAA has clearly stated that this requirement has never meant that the pilot should land at the next available airport, and that the next practical or appropriate field will be fine. The Aeronautical Information Manual states:

[QUOTE]...it is not intended that the requirement to "land as soon as practicable" be construed to mean "as soon as possible." Pilots retain the prerogative of exercising their best judgment and are not required to land at an unauthorized airport, at an airport unsuitable for the type of aircraft flown, or to land only minutes short of their intended destination.[/QUOTE]

If you'll refer to your AIM, read paragraph 6-4-1. You needn't create an emergency in order to use emergency authority, as a lost communication situation may constitute an emergency. You're already there, and the AIM clearly states that:

a. It is virtually impossible to provide regulations and procedures applicable to all possible situations associated with two-way radio communications failure. During two-way radio communications failure, when confronted by a situation not covered in the regulation, pilots are expected to exercise good judgment in whatever action they elect to take. Should the situation so dictate they should not be reluctant to use the emergency action contained in 14 CFR Section 91.3(b).

Further, subparagraph b dictates that:

Whether two-way communications failure constitutes an emergency depends on the circumstances, and in any event, it is a determination made by the pilot. 14 CFR Section 91.3(b) authorizes a pilot to deviate from any rule in Subparts A and B to the extent required to meet an emergency.

Ample circumstances exist in which a blind effort to remain VFR at all costs will result in undue hazard, and will represent a risk greater than continuing according to the clearance. The FAA sees the reason in using judgement according as the circumstances will dictate, even if you do not.

Do as you will.

 

[minitour]

...
Under the above scenario you would still be required to continue under VFR until you ACTUALLY do have a FUEL EMERGENCY in which case you could attempt an instrument approach under your emergency authority. Going into your fuel reserves is understandable during these circumstances and precisely the reason you have fuel RESERVES. 45 minutes is a planning minimum...the regulations do not require you to LAND with 45 minutes in the tank....
...

wait...so...
in the scenario that we lose com in IMC, and we break out into VMC and we can maintain VFR we obviously maintain VFR and land (if practical).

but you're saying...if we break out into VFR you HAVE TO maintain VFR until you have a fuel emergency...and THEN go flying around in the soup running out of gas with no communications and shoot an approach...

...that doesn't seem very smart...I think it'd be smarter to try to maintain VFR...if you can't put it down VFR then go along your route...you're either going to pass a place you can shoot an approach or you'll show up at your destination and shoot the approach...all while still having decent fuel left.

but...thats just what I think...maybe not by the book...but whats legal isnt always whats safe/smart

-mini

 

[Lead Sled]

What you'd do in a training scenario, in your trusty Cherokee is one thing. What you're going to do in a jet doing .82M at FL390 may be totally different. Here's a question for you jet jocks out there...

Are you going to delay your departure out of FL390 until you reach "a fix from which an approach begins" [91.185(3i)]?

Your thoughts please.

Lead Sled

 

[igneousy2]

wait...so...
in the scenario that we lose com in IMC, and we break out into VMC and we can maintain VFR we obviously maintain VFR and land (if practical).

but you're saying...if we break out into VFR you HAVE TO maintain VFR until you have a fuel emergency...and THEN go flying around in the soup running out of gas with no communications and shoot an approach...

...that doesn't seem very smart...I think it'd be smarter to try to maintain VFR...if you can't put it down VFR then go along your route...you're either going to pass a place you can shoot an approach or you'll show up at your destination and shoot the approach...all while still having decent fuel left.

but...thats just what I think...maybe not by the book...but whats legal isnt always whats safe/smart

-mini

I reread the original scenario and didn't see the "nor would a divert produce one", refering to a landing site...my bad. My main point was that some instrument pilots have the mis-conception that it is always okay to continue all the way to your destination. I admit their are many scenarios where it is more prudent to continue IFR then try to stay VFR, I was refering to the guys coming in for IPC's telling me they can legally go all the way from A to B under IFR even after over-flying C, D, and E with severe clear and 10,000' runways and be legal when they get to B.

Anyway, I think this horse is dead.

Later

 

[minitour]

I reread the original scenario and didn't see the "nor would a divert produce one", refering to a landing site...my bad. My main point was that some instrument pilots have the mis-conception that it is always okay to continue all the way to your destination. I admit their are many scenarios where it is more prudent to continue IFR then try to stay VFR, I was refering to the guys coming in for IPC's telling me they can legally go all the way from A to B under IFR even after over-flying C, D, and E with severe clear and 10,000' runways and be legal when they get to B.

Anyway, I think this horse is dead.

Later

ah...understand where you're coming from now...

hey...kind of a "oh geez" scenario

say you lose comms in IMC...you're poppin in and out of some cute little cumulus stuff but not VFR between them (can't get 2,000' horizontal separation) but over to your right/left you see completely clear skys probably 10-15 miles left/right of your route....do you leave the route to go 10-15 miles left/right to get to VFR so you can maintain VFR and then land?

or...

you lose comms in Class A...illegal to maintain VFR in Class A...where do you go? You can be in VMC so would you just look down...find a spot and go? even thought technically you aren't "VFR" ?

-mini

yeah yeah...im a dumba$$