Class B clearance

[Jimbodawg]

I am based near MIA and I mostly fly with VFR flight following to the Bahamas. Usually I am told to climb - which puts me in Bravo. I always ask control "Am I cleared through Bravo?"

In training, I was always taught to get a Bravo clearance before entering (as in the regs). However, it seems like ATC gets pissed at me for asking. Most are annoyed, but just since they say "climb to 5,500" doesn't grant me the clearance.

Last week I asked the controller 3 times whether I was cleared through B and she ignored me totally. She kept saying "climb to 9500" I started my climb outside of B.

Just wanted to know if anyone else has similar trouble, and why do I have to beg for them to say the magic words "cleared into bravo"

 

[atrdriver]

My understanding was always if you are "in radar contact" and a controllers instructions place you in any type of airspace they have "cleared" you into that airspace. If you are just flying along and the controller has not issued you instructions you ahve to "cleared into" the airspace.

atrdriver

 

[midlifeflyer]

You'll have to help me on one point. I'm not familiar with flying to the Bahamas, so you'll have to help me out. Is a VFR flight to the Bahamas a pure unregulated VFR flight? In other words, can you hop in your airplane and go or is it a flight that requires a clearance? If the latter, if you are already operating on an ATC clearance, there's no separate clearance required to enter Class B. (Notice that 91.131 doesn't differentiate between VFR and IFR aircraft. IFR are operationally exempted from the magic words because they are already on an ATC clearance)

But short of that, since you are flying VFR, you should ordinarily be hearing the magic words, and the ATC Handbook is pretty clear about the proper phraseology.

But there is a school of thought that you don't really have to hear the magic words. All 91.131 requires is that you "receive =an= ATC clearance" and the assignment of a specific heading or altitude that will put you into Class B satisfies the requirement.

That may or may not be true as far as enforcement is concerned. Chances are that a controller who gives you an instruction to take you into Class B is not going to report a violation. But I don't really buy it. The ATC Handbook is pretty clear on a number of points (emphasis added)

==============================
7-9-2. VFR AIRCRAFT IN CLASS B AIRSPACE

a. VFR aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance to operate in Class B airspace.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Operational Requests, Para 2-1-18.
FAAO 7110.65, Airspace Classes, Para 2-4-22.

PHRASEOLOGY-

CLEARED THROUGH/TO ENTER/OUT OF BRAVO AIRSPACE,
and as appropriate,
VIA (route). MAINTAIN (altitude) WHILE IN BRAVO AIRSPACE.

or

CLEARED AS REQUESTED.
(Additional instructions, as necessary.)

REMAIN OUTSIDE BRAVO AIRSPACE. (When necessary, reason and/or additional instructions.)

NOTE-
1. Assignment of radar headings, routes, or altitudes is based on the provision that a pilot operating in accordance with VFR is expected to advise ATC if compliance will cause violation of any part of the CFR.

2. Separation and sequencing for VFR aircraft is dependent upon radar. Efforts should be made to segregate VFR traffic from IFR traffic flows when a radar outage occurs.
==============================

So, as far as I can tell, you are acting completely properly and the controllers you are dealing with are used to doing a procedure that is contrary to their own official SOP.

 

[NuGuy]

I am based near MIA and I mostly fly with VFR flight following to the Bahamas. Usually I am told to climb - which puts me in Bravo. I always ask control "Am I cleared through Bravo?"

In training, I was always taught to get a Bravo clearance before entering (as in the regs). However, it seems like ATC gets pissed at me for asking. Most are annoyed, but just since they say "climb to 5,500" doesn't grant me the clearance.

Last week I asked the controller 3 times whether I was cleared through B and she ignored me totally. She kept saying "climb to 9500" I started my climb outside of B.

Just wanted to know if anyone else has similar trouble, and why do I have to beg for them to say the magic words "cleared into bravo"

Hi Jim,

Sounds like a local thing. There has been some case law where vectors took a plane into Class B and they violated the pilot. The point being that the pilot should have known he was heading into the class B and requested a clarification or clearance.

DON'T bet your ticket on this. Conventional wisdom follows whats in the ATC handbook. Make them say the magic words "cleared into the class bravo".

If you sense there is an "issue" with this, simply note the time, frequency and ask the controller for a phone number where you can speak to the supervisor.

I think ATC guys and gals do a fantastic job but sometimes there is a difference of opinion on whats cool and whats not, as anyone who tries to get VFR services from Chicago approach knows. A simple phone call is sometimes all thats needed to clear something up.

Nu

 

[Lead Sled]

My understanding was always if you are "in radar contact" and a controllers instructions place you in any type of airspace they have "cleared" you into that airspace. If you are just flying along and the controller has not issued you instructions you ahve to "cleared into" the airspace.

I used to think that as well. A few months ago, to expidite things, we negotiated a VFR departure with the tower and departed VFR. We operate out of a tower controlled airport (SEE) which underlies some Class B airspace (SAN). After the handoff to departure, the controller gave us vectors and altitudes which eventually put us into Class B airspace. As we were being handed off to Center the controller gave us a phone number to call. I spent some "quality time" on the phone with the supervisor. We kissed and made up, and they didn't pursue it. The bottom line is this, when you're VFR, you're still responsible for traffic and airspace - radar contact and vectors or not. As Nuguy said, make sure you hear the majic words "cleared into Class B".

Lead Sled

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

With the way the feds are, I always make sure I hear "Cleared in class B"

 

[minitour]

I'll go along with the "Cleared into/through the Bravo Airspace" thoughts.

Personally, I've only been in B-space 2x, but when I go in as a VFR flight, I want to hear those words...at least get them on tape so the feds don't have a case on you...

FWIW, even Clearance Delivery at CLE (not sure about others) says "Cleared into the Bravo Airspace maintain ____" when they gave us our departure clearance...so...yeah I'd want to hear those words exactly...

-mini

 

[Jimbodawg]

Thanks all who replied...

and as NuGuy said it's not worth my ticket - I'll make sure I hear the magic words.

Jimbodawg

 

[Lead Sled]

FWIW, an incident like this is the perfect time to fill out one of those NASA forms. We did, just as a precaution, in spite of the fact that the supervisor said that they wouldn't pursue it.

Lead Sled

 

[Sunnfun]

Thanks all who replied...

and as NuGuy said it's not worth my ticket - I'll make sure I hear the magic words.

Jimbodawg

If you get a vector or altitude that puts you in Class B, read it back and respond with "Verify, cleared into Class Bravo" at the end. I've yet to hear a controller not to say the magic words. VFR flying gives you a lot of freedom but also a lot of responsibility.

 

[Vector4fun]

If you get a vector or altitude that puts you in Class B, read it back and respond with "Verify, cleared into Class Bravo" at the end. I've yet to hear a controller not to say the magic words.

That's exactly what I do too, and it works for me as well.