CL300 or CE-680

[jonjuan]

Maybe so, Boiler, but it's simply too little too late. Look at the 60XR. WTF was that? They slapped the PL21 in it and gave owners more interior design options; 2 items that were not big on the list for returning customers and/or folks debating between the new Hawkers with the PL21. Now, here they are with the LJ85, but it's too late. The market is no longer there to support it's development costs and when it dos not sell, it will be labeled a failure. It's probably going to be a GREAT airplane, but most will never know because it should have been out 5-10 years ago.

WTF are you talking about??? The XR was simply BBAs version of Citations keeping the same tube, making a few upgrade and continuing the sales tube as evidenced by the Ultra/Encore versions. The 60 was a mod of the 55 and the XR a mod of the 60. It MADE MONEY for BBA as the Hawker 700/800/XP/750/900 did for HB. Very little development costs for a great return. Do you realize the 45/40/XR cost over $500 Million in development? Why do you think Citation hasn't put out a clean sheet aircraft in oh, 20 years?
The 85 will put the wood to the Sov and anything else around it. BBA knows how to design, test, and build a plane (OK, the original GLEX had teething pains). The CL300 was announced 18 months AFTER the Hawker Horizon and certified 5 years later. The Hawker 4000? It was announced in 2005!
The 85 should have been out 5-10 years ago? Really? How was the composite manufacturing process in 1998? Synthetic vision?
Fact is, BBA makes great planes, but the reason for anyone to make great planes is to make money. The 85 will be certified well before the G650, btw.

 

[X man]

cl 300 vs Ce 680

I have not flown the 300, great cockpit and interior, the numbers look very good for range , payload, and speed. It is a great looking aircraft with the right paint job. I have flown the 680, and it has a smaller cockpit, not really a stand up cabin, but comfortable, It is not as fast or as long legged, but it is a great aircraft to fly, really good take off and landing speeds, climbs to the higher flight levels at gross TOW. We operated one in the ME, and India, with minimum headaches. Cessna will back you up at all times, their product support is excellent, and they will listen to your problems and put a team on to it ASAP. I am sorry I cannot get they take off numbers for you at present, but the take off numbers at sea level are very impressive. As a pilot I would rather spend 7 hours in the cockpit of the CL 300, as a Chief Pilot , the decision would be a bit more difficult.

Cheers

 

[ElCid88]

I really like the disks that Conklin and DeDecker put out. You can plug in the numbers for each aircraft and it will give you very acurate fixed and variable operating costs. The nice thing is you will get unbiased information to show your bosses. Let them sit in each aircraft, and let them decide. I also agree that Bombardier and Cessna both put out fairly acurate numbers (surprisingly). Good luck.

 

[Webslinger]

Thank you all for all of the information you have given. Much appreciated.

 

[CA1900]

The CL300 was announced 18 months AFTER the Hawker Horizon and certified 5 years later. The Hawker 4000? It was announced in 2005!

The Hawker 4000 is the Horizon. In 2005, we finally saw the first prototype. The program was announced in 1996, and is just now finally (sort of) getting them out the door. Sad.

 

[EngineThunder]

I fly the 300 and think it is a great airplane for our department. We also looked at the C-680 but we ran into issues with contaminated runway numbers. We operate out of a 5100' strip in northern Ohio and it simply wouldn't do it due to Vmcg numbers on contaminated runways. We even called another operator in our area to make sure we were crunching the numbers right and they told us that 5100' in the winter time would not work. Mach .73 LRC speed to get the 2,950 nm range in the C-680, while Mach .80 is the LRC in the Challenger to fly 3,000 nm. Cabin size and comfort, large internal baggage were other factors too. The C-680 flew nice and does have low Vref speeds (100 kts) but in the end the 300 just was the total package for us. Any questions PM me.

 

[Webslinger]

Good info...thats the info I need. Real numbers, not BS that the OEM salesmen tell you. Thanks again.