Citation VII or Lr60?

[XLDaddy]

Boss is interested in moving to a midsize cabin ac and mentioned CE650 and the lr 60. Currently operate a very nice CE550B, pt91. He wants the cabin, speed, baggage space, and apu would be nice. He's not interested in new, but very late model. Just wondering if anyone has real world operational experiences as far as dispatch reliability, maint. differences, and flying impressions. We will use our own independent shop which is an authorized lear and citation facility. Our base is a 5000 foot, sea level airport and we rarely operate out of airports that are less than 4500 feet, most much longer. Should I be pointing him to any other type? Any info would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[ultrarunner]

The 60's and the 650 are both runway hogs when it gets heavy or contaminated. 4500 should be a minimum for a dry runway.

The 60 has MUCH more efficent engines and as such has better range than the 650. The 60 will cruise at .78 at 410 and above. .79 or .80 a bit lower.

The 650 has a much more efficient wing and will cruise .80 and faster pretty much all the time and at high altitude.

APU's are only standard on LR60's delivered today. On all other planes it's an option, so look carefully on used 60's. It's nearly a necessity on the 60's to get everthing up and running and aligned.

I think APU's were standard on the late model 650's. A 650 flies just like a citation, even though it's a swept wing plane.

You might have a bit better baggage situation on the 650 than the 60. And I think the cabin is slightly longer on the 650 as well.

We have been pleased with the dispatch on our 60. I can't speak for the 650's.

All in all the planes stack up pretty close, depending up on our mission and load factors.

The other planes in this group would be the Hawker 800XP, but it's got zip for baggage space. Another option would be the Citation XL. It's got the larger cessna fuselage from the X I think, and the wing from an Ultra. Slower...but good cabin and good baggage.

You should get some demo's in all of these types.

 

[XLDaddy]

Thanks for the informative reply. Thought about the excel, but boss wants the speed and a bit better range than it offers. I think the Hawker is out simply because of the baggage situation, they really like the external types. Can the 60 do coast to coast most of the time or is that streching it a bit? Pretty sure the 650 does not have the legs. Not critical, but we do go to the east coast about 4 times a year. Thanks again.

 

[ultrarunner]

XL, you can top off a 60 and put 4 to 5 folks in it, depending up on your BOW. We make the west-coast, from the east, about 65% of the time in the winter, most of the time in the summer. We can always come home eastbound, that's never an issue, unless we have the seats filled and bad weather. The 650 is a stretch eastbound, from what I remember.

We like the 60. The Collins Proline 4 and UNS-1E FMS's integrate nicely. Some late-model 60's might have the Collins FMS's, but not many. The Pratt 305A's sip fuel, and the FADEC is nice. Plan on 200 gallons per hour on long trips, and a touch over 200 gallons on short trips.

 

[banned username 2]

Should I be pointing him to any other type?

What about a Falcon 50? or 50EX? It can carry 9, has a good external baggage compartment, can go nearly 3,000 NM (50EX can do 3,200 NM), it can cruise at Mach .84 (50EX) (.80 for straight 50) and can operate out of a 4,000 ft runway all day long...

 

[some_dude]

I think FalconCapt has the right idea. The other airplane to look at in that range is a Sovereign-- it sounds like it would do everything you want, the only question is whether your boss wants to pony up the purchase price.

 

[fly4kix]

I'm not sure what the used market on 650's is like now, but for awhile it was tight on 60's. Recently it has gotten alittle better for buyers but I would expect to pay 7-9 Million for a good 60.

5000' dry is no problem, we find the contaminated runway data really goes through the roof. Don't know about the citation but brake energy is a real issue when you get out west into some high density alt's.

Dispatch reliablity has been excellent, and d.o.c is actually less than the 35 we operate.

 

[XLDaddy]

DA50 or CE680 would definetly work for his missions, but like Falcon Capt brought up, I'm not sure he wants to lay out that kind of scratch. The numbers he gave me was laying out between 7-8 mil, for a used aircraft. I think the 680 won't be in that range for some time to come. Would you be looking at a pretty ratty DA50 for that kind of monies? This is just preliminary digging, he wants me to look into setting up demos this spring after our schedule lightens up. I've just been looking into the BCA data for the 60 and 650's, but will expand a bit on the bigger side to see the differences. Thanks for the input fellas.

 

[CapnVegetto]

I would run far away from a CE-650. I've only got about 60 hours in it, but I think it's a piece of junk. Bad bad bad runway hog, flies like a mack truck, and I'd REALLY hate to lose an engine in one in real life. Until you get the speed up, it climbs like a Cessna alright......a 172.

The plus is that it's a fast little devil. 460 all day long, 470 in the right conditions. Decent baggage space. Decent cabin.

 

[G100driver]

How about a G-100. Has good runway numbers and now that Gulfstream supports the airplane it actually has good dispatch reliablity.