Circling question

[njcapt]

Did you mean SWA and ATA are not approved for circling approaches below 1000?

Yep. We aren't approved for any circling approaches. We are only allowed to 'maneuver in visual conditions', ergo, 1000ft and 3 miles.

 

[mar]

General, was your questioned answered?

The real answer is: It depends.

It depends on when you lost the airport.

Conventional wisdom dictates you turn towards the airport and then comence the missed approach.

Obviously not every airport is the same.

You need to have a plan at every step of the way. Always leave yourself an out.

A more specific answer is impossible without an approach plate and a VFR chart.

Just be careful and use your head.

 

[j-3]

"A more specific answer is impossible without an approach plate and a VFR chart."

ILS 15R in BOS Circle (I think they call it a visual) to 4L. On short final to 4L and we have to Miss App. There is lot traffic on 4R for we follow the MA procedures for ILS 15R. Probably tower will assign a heading during the miss, but if they don't ???
Lot people told me the best thing is to just fly 4L RWY heading. What do you guys think about that?

Thank you

 

[mar]

Just ask.

Or if you've already switched to departure you'll probably hear LOUD and CLEAR what they want you to do.

Ya gotta use your head. Have a plan--every step of the way.

 

[surplus1]

I don't know about SWA, but for ATA, circling minimums are VMC conditions (1000 and 3).

Which is exactly what they ought to be. Rest assured, SWA and ATA are not alone.

Just as it behooves the prudent not to operate in freezing rain or drive your car at the speed limit when the road is full of snow and ice or your in the middle of a heavy Florida rain shower, it also behooves the prudent not to be flying around at low altitude trying to stay "visual" when the weather is really IMC.

"There are old pilots and there are bold pilots. There are no old bold pilots."

We have "alternates" for more than one reason.

 

[flx757]

Rest assured, SWA and ATA are not alone.

One of the "others" is Alaska. We too, are prohbited from doing circling approaches. Only a "circling maneuver in visual conditions, where the wx has to be 1000/3.

 

[CatYaaak]

Which is exactly what they ought to be. Rest assured, SWA and ATA are not alone.

Just as it behooves the prudent not to operate in freezing rain or drive your car at the speed limit when the road is full of snow and ice or your in the middle of a heavy Florida rain shower, it also behooves the prudent not to be flying around at low altitude trying to stay "visual" when the weather is really IMC.

"There are old pilots and there are bold pilots. There are no old bold pilots."

We have "alternates" for more than one reason.

It's a "circling manuever" and you don't fly around at "low altitude", you maintain a published MDA derived from a survey of obstacles and terrain. And you're NOT maneuvering for the purpose of "trying to stay visual". You're maneuvering the aircraft into a normal position to land within the lateral-limit protected area in order to leave the MDA, just like any other non-precision approach. If you can't see the runway by the MAP you fly the missed. If you can see the runways but can't maneuver to that position, you fly the missed. If you begin to exceed the lateral limits, you fly the missed just as you do while flying any approach, precision or non-precision.

If you can do both, but subsequently lose visual contact with the runways due to weather or any other reason, you fly the missed. Did someone teach you to begin mucking about at that poing, sniffing for the airport? No wonder you think it's dangerous.

Safety during circling requires having a plan before you begin the approach and strictly ADHERING to the published limits of altitude and circling radius, and a mindset to bag it if your plan or any limit can't be met. Just because the airlines don't choose to spend the time and money training for this doesn't mean they are haphazard.

 

[mar]

flx757

You certainly know more about AS ops than I but isn't there any other airport in the system besides Dutch Harbor that requires circling?

Without digging into my Jepps it seems like there must be one in Southeast.

And I realize you guys no longer serve DUT. To honest, I was always surprised the FAA signed off on the circling approaches anyway--especially at an airport where you can't even *see* the runway at the MAP!!!

(I wish you'd post more but I understand why you don't)

 

[flx757]

mar,

There's nothing that says we can't "circle". It's just that it must be a "cirling maneuver in VMC conditions". Just as DUT has always been. The approach was a means to get you to visual conditions. Once in visual conditions, you continued, using various visual references...XXX bay, xxx point, to maneuver to the runway.

It's true we no longer serve DUT, but JNU now has an RNP approach, and any others that would require "circling" must be done in VMC conditions with the reported weather at least 1000/3.

*(caveat)*--I am on the MD-80. We don't go to Southeast. If any 737 pilot wants to chime in, please do so. However, I do know that system wide, we are not approved for "circling approaches", only "circling maneuvers in VMC" with reported ceiling at least 1000' above the airport elevation and visibility at least 3 miles.

 

[mar]

That clears it up Thanks.

I understand better now. Thanks.

 

[surplus1]

It's a "circling manuever" and you don't fly around at "low altitude", you maintain a published MDA derived from a survey of obstacles and terrain. And you're NOT maneuvering for the purpose of "trying to stay visual". You're maneuvering the aircraft into a normal position to land within the lateral-limit protected area in order to leave the MDA, just like any other non-precision approach. If you can't see the runway by the MAP you fly the missed. If you can see the runways but can't maneuver to that position, you fly the missed. If you begin to exceed the lateral limits, you fly the missed just as you do while flying any approach, precision or non-precision.

Thank you for the flying lesson. The beauty of this work is that I lean something just about every day. If I keep at it I hope that one day I too will be "in the know".

Did someone teach you to begin mucking about at that poing, sniffing for the airport? No wonder you think it's dangerous.

Nope, no one taught me that. About all I've managed to learn is that humility and cockpits go well together.

[Safety during circling requires having a plan before you begin the approach and strictly ADHERING to the published limits of altitude and circling radius, and a mindset to bag it if your plan or any limit can't be met. Just because the airlines don't choose to spend the time and money training for this doesn't mean they are haphazard. [/QUOTE]

Thanks for the tips. I guess the airlines just don't know what they should. Maybe one day they will learn and when things get better and they can afford it, they'll teach us what you already know. I sure hope so. Wouldn't want to be lost mucking about sniffing.

Best wishes.