Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
CHQ vs. Comair
- Thread starter i'mbatman
- Start date
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
- Status
B
Be200pilot
CHQ because I think they are planning to grow more than Comair is. Upgrade times are short (now at least) at CHQ because of new growth. Rumor has it that they may be getting the emb-170.
Id like to hear what some Comair guys have to say about their planned growth because I dont know for sure.
Id like to hear what some Comair guys have to say about their planned growth because I dont know for sure.
Top 10 reasons to go to comair
1. Stability. Chautaqua can piss of one codeshare partner and you are furloughed.
2. Retirement: whether you stay or not your vested in retirement of 2% a year, increasing 2% every year until 20 years. You are vested in 401K after two years match 1/2 of first 5%.
3. S3 status with no service charges, and 6 s2 days a year. 18 transoceanic non service charge days, unlimited svs. fee transoceanic days.
4. Insurance, not saying its great but it sure is better than some others I pay about 40 a pay period for insurance. I think it is 1x earnings for life w/ options up to 6, $15 copay for dr. 7 for rx dental covers 100% everything except cosmetic up to 1500 a year. I think after all the work I had done this year it is impossible to go over 1500. They pay your physical, and a bunch of other stuff i just don't know about.
5. Training, they do all their training themselves own sims instructors and ground school. It is basically the same training as a major.
6. Pay
7. Commuter policy. Ok, everybody has one but ours is pretty good, list two fligths that show up a half hour before sign in. If you don't make it or there is a mechanical you are not penalized it is just like a drop. Also, with the exception of MCO, DFW, BNA Cincinnati is a pretty easy place to commute to.
8. Work rules and trip rigs. This is the main reason for the strike. Still some improving to do but beats the hell out of my last airline. Average 14 days off a month with average of 78 hours pay and 1.65 per diem w/ 100% deadhead and displacement pay regardless of completion factor.
9. You don't have to write on the yoke which airline you are when you make your pa.
10. You might upgrade quicker over there, you might not. Planned growth is just that planned. Nobody really knows until the jet shows up on property. The top 8 reasons are facts the last 2 fiction. Who knows both airlines may not even exist in 10 years. See you around.
1. Stability. Chautaqua can piss of one codeshare partner and you are furloughed.
2. Retirement: whether you stay or not your vested in retirement of 2% a year, increasing 2% every year until 20 years. You are vested in 401K after two years match 1/2 of first 5%.
3. S3 status with no service charges, and 6 s2 days a year. 18 transoceanic non service charge days, unlimited svs. fee transoceanic days.
4. Insurance, not saying its great but it sure is better than some others I pay about 40 a pay period for insurance. I think it is 1x earnings for life w/ options up to 6, $15 copay for dr. 7 for rx dental covers 100% everything except cosmetic up to 1500 a year. I think after all the work I had done this year it is impossible to go over 1500. They pay your physical, and a bunch of other stuff i just don't know about.
5. Training, they do all their training themselves own sims instructors and ground school. It is basically the same training as a major.
6. Pay
7. Commuter policy. Ok, everybody has one but ours is pretty good, list two fligths that show up a half hour before sign in. If you don't make it or there is a mechanical you are not penalized it is just like a drop. Also, with the exception of MCO, DFW, BNA Cincinnati is a pretty easy place to commute to.
8. Work rules and trip rigs. This is the main reason for the strike. Still some improving to do but beats the hell out of my last airline. Average 14 days off a month with average of 78 hours pay and 1.65 per diem w/ 100% deadhead and displacement pay regardless of completion factor.
9. You don't have to write on the yoke which airline you are when you make your pa.
10. You might upgrade quicker over there, you might not. Planned growth is just that planned. Nobody really knows until the jet shows up on property. The top 8 reasons are facts the last 2 fiction. Who knows both airlines may not even exist in 10 years. See you around.
embraerdriver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2003
- Posts
- 108
Re: Top 10 reasons to go to comair
How's about a CHQ reply now.......
1- At least we are not wholly owned and if we do piss off one codeshare partner we have two left. For the record, this has never happened. At comair if you piss off delta they transfer the flying and you stay in the right seat till you cave.
2- Retirement? Our 401k is acceptable and actually is higher when it tops out. Life is 2x annual earnings, $15 per pay period for Blue cross, Blue shield PPO.$10 co pay! Vision, Dental, medicals etc. I don't think comair is better on this except for the retirement.
3-S3 for us as well so long as you are based at a DAL base. USA travel benny's are better in all honesty. AAL if you choose St Louis.
4- See above.
5- Training- 8 weeks/ $125per week. Not 12 weeks like comair. Training done at Flight safety. I have no complaints.
6- Pay??? It is not much higher and If you disregard the FO pay(because you will be a captain in 2 years) You actually make more at CHQ.
7- Commuter policy is the same everywhere.
8- No rigs, 1.45 perdiem, 81 hours avg/month, 75% deadhead pay, and our completion factor does affect our line guarantee. 2-3 times a year we miss the 98.5% goal. Oh did I mention that I have never( in 1.5 years) cancelled for mtc! New BIRDS!!
9- We had 11 J31's, 26 SF340's, and 3 ERJ's in June 2000. We now have 82 ERJ's! Who else has had that transitional, growth despite rough times. NO ONE!
10- Bases! Where do you want to go? MCO, RIC, GSO, CMH, IND, STL, LGA, PHL. CVG for comair- thats it!
11- No junior manning!!
12- Stability??? Dude we have been in business since 1973- That's before comair, thank you very much!!
13- Come on now!! You fly primarily one codeshare depending on where your based.
It's all about the decisions you make!
Oh yeah Comair is being asked to take concessions, in return for growth. That should help you sleep.
My personal belief is that the pilot group is showing a little dividing at comair due to the age difference. Lots of silverhairs at comair.
DDpaysoff said:
How's about a CHQ reply now.......
1- At least we are not wholly owned and if we do piss off one codeshare partner we have two left. For the record, this has never happened. At comair if you piss off delta they transfer the flying and you stay in the right seat till you cave.
2- Retirement? Our 401k is acceptable and actually is higher when it tops out. Life is 2x annual earnings, $15 per pay period for Blue cross, Blue shield PPO.$10 co pay! Vision, Dental, medicals etc. I don't think comair is better on this except for the retirement.
3-S3 for us as well so long as you are based at a DAL base. USA travel benny's are better in all honesty. AAL if you choose St Louis.
4- See above.
5- Training- 8 weeks/ $125per week. Not 12 weeks like comair. Training done at Flight safety. I have no complaints.
6- Pay??? It is not much higher and If you disregard the FO pay(because you will be a captain in 2 years) You actually make more at CHQ.
7- Commuter policy is the same everywhere.
8- No rigs, 1.45 perdiem, 81 hours avg/month, 75% deadhead pay, and our completion factor does affect our line guarantee. 2-3 times a year we miss the 98.5% goal. Oh did I mention that I have never( in 1.5 years) cancelled for mtc! New BIRDS!!
9- We had 11 J31's, 26 SF340's, and 3 ERJ's in June 2000. We now have 82 ERJ's! Who else has had that transitional, growth despite rough times. NO ONE!
10- Bases! Where do you want to go? MCO, RIC, GSO, CMH, IND, STL, LGA, PHL. CVG for comair- thats it!
11- No junior manning!!
12- Stability??? Dude we have been in business since 1973- That's before comair, thank you very much!!
13- Come on now!! You fly primarily one codeshare depending on where your based.
It's all about the decisions you make!
Oh yeah Comair is being asked to take concessions, in return for growth. That should help you sleep.
My personal belief is that the pilot group is showing a little dividing at comair due to the age difference. Lots of silverhairs at comair.
For the record you are an s3b, and it makes a difference. Why are you so defensive? It sounds like you are yelling your response. I agree you are a "little' worse in every category. I'm just stating facts, I don't have time to get into a pissing match. BTW, I made a mistake our min line value is 82 max 93, average 88 with my bid. Good luck with your decision.
Last edited:
DDpaysoff said:
I did not see anyone being defensive. Only stating the facts. Comair is a good company and so is CHQ. And come on "a little worse in every cat.". That happens to be your opinion in which many people will not agree with you on. You have some things we don't and we in turn have things you don't.
I think the choice of bases alone is a big benefit at CHQ. But that is just my opinion.
Last edited:
captainv
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2002
- Posts
- 572
gee, i'm surprised nobody's whipped out a tape measure to see who's airplane is bigger...
both airlines have pros/cons. hard to say if one is a clear better choice over the other without knowing what's most important to you. here's my view from the Comair side of the fence.
1 - wholly owned vs. contract. as a contract carrier, you have an advantage in flexibilty, signing agreements with as many airlines as you can. the problem is that you're not attractive unless you fly for cheap. look at ACA. they're free to try and sign another carrier to replace United. But who'd take them over CHQ or Mesa, etc.? Delta spent over $1 billion on Comair, then lost $800 million more during the strike. are they going to yank all our flying away and watch us wither? doesn't make sense. of course, at a WO, you run the risk of any new growth going to contract carriers over you. but then, Comair is getting at least 250 new pilots next year, from CRJ-700 deliveries. If we happen to get the DoJets or any of the phantom 45 RJs that'll go way up. i know CHQ's growing like a weed, but what are the firm numbers for planes, pilots?
2- the benny's are the same but our retirement's better. that only makes a big difference if you're planning to stay a long, long time.
3- apparently the travel benefits are similar.
4- apparently the insurance benefits are similar.
5- CHQ training 8 weeks/$125 week. Comair training 12 weeks/$250 week. My training was absolutely top-notch, although i thought they could shave a week or two off the syllabus. but it's designed to get the CFIs who've never flown jets up to speed...
6- Pay - got CHQ numbers? here's right now rates, not reflecting future increases set in the contract. FO years 1, 2, 3, CA for 4, 5, 6
CMR FO $22.50, $35.75, $36.86
CMR CA $63.55, $65.51, $67.53
7- maybe the commuter policy is the same at CMR & CHQ (2 flights that get in 30 mins. prior), but it's not the same everywhere. ASA doesn't even have one.
8- Comair does have rigs, $1.65 per diem, minimum line of 82 hours, max 93, 100% deadhead. Oh, did i mention that in 1 year of flying i have cancelled once. New birds! Some really, really old birds! Great mechanics!!!
9- We recently got our 150th RJ, and they're still coming. For now.
10- CHQ kicks our butts on bases, but 8 bases for 750 pilots? that must keep scheduling on its toes. as for Comair, *sigh*, it's CVG. But dare i say it? ATL? Please?
11- Not sure if junior manning will continue for the CRJ-700. Should be enough people on the bottom to give more senior guys a regular line. The pay is the same first year, and reserve on the 70 pays the same as a 50-seater lineholder. Plus after year one, you can always bid over to the 50... As for day to day flying, i've never been junior manned.
12- OK, they've been around since 73. We have 150 jets, 900 flights a day, we pay more. But who knows, they may be bigger than us in 5 years.
>Comair is being asked to take concessions, in return for growth. >That should help you sleep.
Yes, we were asked to take concessions. We said NO. That sure helps me sleep.
both airlines have pros/cons. hard to say if one is a clear better choice over the other without knowing what's most important to you. here's my view from the Comair side of the fence.
1 - wholly owned vs. contract. as a contract carrier, you have an advantage in flexibilty, signing agreements with as many airlines as you can. the problem is that you're not attractive unless you fly for cheap. look at ACA. they're free to try and sign another carrier to replace United. But who'd take them over CHQ or Mesa, etc.? Delta spent over $1 billion on Comair, then lost $800 million more during the strike. are they going to yank all our flying away and watch us wither? doesn't make sense. of course, at a WO, you run the risk of any new growth going to contract carriers over you. but then, Comair is getting at least 250 new pilots next year, from CRJ-700 deliveries. If we happen to get the DoJets or any of the phantom 45 RJs that'll go way up. i know CHQ's growing like a weed, but what are the firm numbers for planes, pilots?
2- the benny's are the same but our retirement's better. that only makes a big difference if you're planning to stay a long, long time.
3- apparently the travel benefits are similar.
4- apparently the insurance benefits are similar.
5- CHQ training 8 weeks/$125 week. Comair training 12 weeks/$250 week. My training was absolutely top-notch, although i thought they could shave a week or two off the syllabus. but it's designed to get the CFIs who've never flown jets up to speed...
6- Pay - got CHQ numbers? here's right now rates, not reflecting future increases set in the contract. FO years 1, 2, 3, CA for 4, 5, 6
CMR FO $22.50, $35.75, $36.86
CMR CA $63.55, $65.51, $67.53
7- maybe the commuter policy is the same at CMR & CHQ (2 flights that get in 30 mins. prior), but it's not the same everywhere. ASA doesn't even have one.
8- Comair does have rigs, $1.65 per diem, minimum line of 82 hours, max 93, 100% deadhead. Oh, did i mention that in 1 year of flying i have cancelled once. New birds! Some really, really old birds! Great mechanics!!!
9- We recently got our 150th RJ, and they're still coming. For now.
10- CHQ kicks our butts on bases, but 8 bases for 750 pilots? that must keep scheduling on its toes. as for Comair, *sigh*, it's CVG. But dare i say it? ATL? Please?
11- Not sure if junior manning will continue for the CRJ-700. Should be enough people on the bottom to give more senior guys a regular line. The pay is the same first year, and reserve on the 70 pays the same as a 50-seater lineholder. Plus after year one, you can always bid over to the 50... As for day to day flying, i've never been junior manned.
12- OK, they've been around since 73. We have 150 jets, 900 flights a day, we pay more. But who knows, they may be bigger than us in 5 years.
>Comair is being asked to take concessions, in return for growth. >That should help you sleep.
Yes, we were asked to take concessions. We said NO. That sure helps me sleep.
Last edited:
captainv
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2002
- Posts
- 572
gee, i'm surprised nobody's whipped out a tape measure to see who's airplane is bigger...
both airlines have pros/cons. hard to say if one is a clear better choice over the other without knowing what's most important to you. here's my view from the Comair side of the fence.
1 - wholly owned vs. contract. as a contract carrier, you have an advantage in flexibilty, signing agreements with as many airlines as you can. the problem is that you're not attractive unless you fly for cheap. look at ACA. they're free to try and sign another carrier to replace United. But who'd take them over CHQ or Mesa, etc.? Delta spent over $1 billion on Comair, then lost $800 million more during the strike. are they going to yank all our flying away and watch us wither? doesn't make sense. of course, at a WO, you run the risk of any new growth going to contract carriers over you. but then, Comair is getting at least 250 new pilots next year, from CRJ-700 deliveries. If we happen to get the DoJets or any of the phanton 45 RJs that'll go way up.
2- the benny's are the same but our retirement's better. that only makes a big difference if you're planning to stay a long, long time.
3- apparently the travel benefits are similar.
4- apparently the insurance benefits are similar.
5- CHQ training 8 weeks/$125 week. Comair training 12 weeks/$250 week. My training was absolutely top-notch, although i thought they could shave a week or two off the syllabus. but it's designed to get the CFIs who've never flown jets up to speed...
6- Pay - got CHQ numbers? here's right now rates, not reflecting future increases set in the contract. FO years 1, 2, 3, CA for 4, 5, 6
CMR FO $22.50, $35.75, $36.86
CMR CA $63.55, $65.51, $67.53
7- maybe the commuter policy is the same at CMR & CHQ (2 flights that get in 30 mins. prior), but it's not the same everywhere. ASA doesn't even have one.
8- Comair does have rigs, $1.65 per diem, minimum line of 82 hours, max 93, 100% deadhead. Oh, did i mention that in 1 year of flying i have cancelled once. New birds! Some really, really old birds! Great mechanics!!!
9- We recently got our 150th RJ, and they're still coming.
10- CHQ kicks our butts on bases, but 8 bases for 750 pilots? that must keep scheduling on its toes. as for Comair, *sigh*, it's CVG. But dare i say it? ATL? Please?
11- Not sure if junior manning will continue for the CRJ-700. Should be enough people on the bottom to give more senior guys a regular line. The pay is the same first year, and reserve on the 70 pays the same as a 50-seater lineholder. Plus after year one, you can always bid over to the 50... As for day to day flying, i've never been junior manned.
12- OK, they've been around since 73. We have 150 jets, 900 flights a day, we pay more. But who knows, they may be bigger than us in 5 years.
>Comair is being asked to take concessions, in return for growth. >That should help you sleep.
Yes, we were asked to take concessions. We said NO. That sure helps me sleep.
both airlines have pros/cons. hard to say if one is a clear better choice over the other without knowing what's most important to you. here's my view from the Comair side of the fence.
1 - wholly owned vs. contract. as a contract carrier, you have an advantage in flexibilty, signing agreements with as many airlines as you can. the problem is that you're not attractive unless you fly for cheap. look at ACA. they're free to try and sign another carrier to replace United. But who'd take them over CHQ or Mesa, etc.? Delta spent over $1 billion on Comair, then lost $800 million more during the strike. are they going to yank all our flying away and watch us wither? doesn't make sense. of course, at a WO, you run the risk of any new growth going to contract carriers over you. but then, Comair is getting at least 250 new pilots next year, from CRJ-700 deliveries. If we happen to get the DoJets or any of the phanton 45 RJs that'll go way up.
2- the benny's are the same but our retirement's better. that only makes a big difference if you're planning to stay a long, long time.
3- apparently the travel benefits are similar.
4- apparently the insurance benefits are similar.
5- CHQ training 8 weeks/$125 week. Comair training 12 weeks/$250 week. My training was absolutely top-notch, although i thought they could shave a week or two off the syllabus. but it's designed to get the CFIs who've never flown jets up to speed...
6- Pay - got CHQ numbers? here's right now rates, not reflecting future increases set in the contract. FO years 1, 2, 3, CA for 4, 5, 6
CMR FO $22.50, $35.75, $36.86
CMR CA $63.55, $65.51, $67.53
7- maybe the commuter policy is the same at CMR & CHQ (2 flights that get in 30 mins. prior), but it's not the same everywhere. ASA doesn't even have one.
8- Comair does have rigs, $1.65 per diem, minimum line of 82 hours, max 93, 100% deadhead. Oh, did i mention that in 1 year of flying i have cancelled once. New birds! Some really, really old birds! Great mechanics!!!
9- We recently got our 150th RJ, and they're still coming.
10- CHQ kicks our butts on bases, but 8 bases for 750 pilots? that must keep scheduling on its toes. as for Comair, *sigh*, it's CVG. But dare i say it? ATL? Please?
11- Not sure if junior manning will continue for the CRJ-700. Should be enough people on the bottom to give more senior guys a regular line. The pay is the same first year, and reserve on the 70 pays the same as a 50-seater lineholder. Plus after year one, you can always bid over to the 50... As for day to day flying, i've never been junior manned.
12- OK, they've been around since 73. We have 150 jets, 900 flights a day, we pay more. But who knows, they may be bigger than us in 5 years.
>Comair is being asked to take concessions, in return for growth. >That should help you sleep.
Yes, we were asked to take concessions. We said NO. That sure helps me sleep.
AirBill
PC LOAD LETTER
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2003
- Posts
- 188
If I were faced with that choice today, I'd be scratching my head, too. I'd lean toward CHQ, but maybe that's because I work there and I'm having the time of my life. We have our problems, but the positives far outweigh any negatives in my honest opinion. Plus, I'm very proud of what our pilot group accomplished with the new contract, despite what's been bandied about here.
As far as Comair, I know it to be nothing short of top-notch. Every pilot I have met there has been the picture of professionalism, and their operation in CVG is pretty much the standard for RJ operations, though I could also say the same about our operation in STL. I'd also say our work in MCO is top-notch, too.
I think it's unfortunate that there's a lot of bickering between these two pilot groups. Given the situation, it's unavoidable I guess. But it shouldn't take away from the fact that these are two highly respected organizations with dedicated professionals. For the record, though, I'm glad I'm with Chautauqua and I don't think you could go wrong here.
As far as Comair, I know it to be nothing short of top-notch. Every pilot I have met there has been the picture of professionalism, and their operation in CVG is pretty much the standard for RJ operations, though I could also say the same about our operation in STL. I'd also say our work in MCO is top-notch, too.
I think it's unfortunate that there's a lot of bickering between these two pilot groups. Given the situation, it's unavoidable I guess. But it shouldn't take away from the fact that these are two highly respected organizations with dedicated professionals. For the record, though, I'm glad I'm with Chautauqua and I don't think you could go wrong here.
WorldSeries
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2002
- Posts
- 48
Mookie
luckiest man alive
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2002
- Posts
- 879
rptrain
Probationary Member
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2002
- Posts
- 199
Re: Re: Top 10 reasons to go to comair
You know who spouts this EXACT same line of donkey squat about "pilots making more because they upgrade faster?" I'll give you a hint: his initials are J.O.
Yeah, just disregard the FO pay. After all, it's not like you're doing anything over there anyway. Heck, you should be paying them for the privilege of flying their "new birds." Hey, that gives me an idea; now where did I put B.B.'s phone number...?embraerdriver said:
You know who spouts this EXACT same line of donkey squat about "pilots making more because they upgrade faster?" I'll give you a hint: his initials are J.O.
embraerdriver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2003
- Posts
- 108
Taken out of context.........read it again. Everyone else knows what I meant.
It has nothing to do with the F.O's and how hard they work.
Geez man, is that what you make of that? No wonder the industry is all screwed up....people such as yourself that construe anything they see fit from anything they can.
Grow up.
It has nothing to do with the F.O's and how hard they work.
Geez man, is that what you make of that? No wonder the industry is all screwed up....people such as yourself that construe anything they see fit from anything they can.
Grow up.
FurloughedAgain
Cabin Heating & Air Tech.
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2002
- Posts
- 1,657
Actually I read it the same way that rptrain did. It appears to me that you have no appreciation for the value of your first officers and no interest in the pay or quality of life of first officers since their upgrade could potentially be quick. Essentially you're saying "Hang in there son and someday YOU can be a Captain too!".
I have news for you. The quick upgrades won't last forever. At some point growth will stop and you'll have a lot of very unhappy, long term copilots.
Maybe YOU should do a little growing up.
The right seat is not a rest-stop on the way to the left seat.
<-- Supporter of F/O Rights!
I have news for you. The quick upgrades won't last forever. At some point growth will stop and you'll have a lot of very unhappy, long term copilots.
Maybe YOU should do a little growing up.
The right seat is not a rest-stop on the way to the left seat.
<-- Supporter of F/O Rights!
Last edited:
embraerdriver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2003
- Posts
- 108
Essentially you have it wrong. I care for fo's pay and I too was an fo for 2.5 years so let's not get carried away.
HERE IS WHAT I MEAN!!!
If you are an fo at comair for three years, and lets say you make 25k first year, 35k second year, and 40k third year that's 100k. With me so far? Now if you work for chq for three years and make 25k first year, 30k second year, and upgrade and make 60k third year (as captain), well that's 115k!
GET IT?
IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH?
HERE IS WHAT I MEAN!!!
If you are an fo at comair for three years, and lets say you make 25k first year, 35k second year, and 40k third year that's 100k. With me so far? Now if you work for chq for three years and make 25k first year, 30k second year, and upgrade and make 60k third year (as captain), well that's 115k!
GET IT?
IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH?
Re: Re: Re: Top 10 reasons to go to comair
Man, you turned a very civil conversation about two good airlines into a pissing match. If you don't like the FO pay, GO SOMEPLACE ELSE. PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Upgrades won't last forever. But guess what, neither will our short term contract.
If the growth stops, guess what, the "long term" FO's can vote the next TA down if they want. That's why we have a 4 year deal.
rptrain said:
Man, you turned a very civil conversation about two good airlines into a pissing match. If you don't like the FO pay, GO SOMEPLACE ELSE. PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Upgrades won't last forever. But guess what, neither will our short term contract.
If the growth stops, guess what, the "long term" FO's can vote the next TA down if they want. That's why we have a 4 year deal.
FurloughedAgain
Cabin Heating & Air Tech.
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2002
- Posts
- 1,657
nimtz
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Posts
- 1,442
Re: Re: Re: Re: Top 10 reasons to go to comair
Sure 4 years, that's not long. Until the company saddles up to the RLA Act and drags negotiations on for two years + before any strike talks begin. This attitude of 'don't worry we have quick upgrades' has to fricking stop! It is because of this garbage attitude that fo's are not even getting a small pay increase to fly the bigger equipment (not that the captain increase is even close to enough). That is selling this profession short in my book. But I guess you negotiate what you think you worth...
TWAER said:
Sure 4 years, that's not long. Until the company saddles up to the RLA Act and drags negotiations on for two years + before any strike talks begin. This attitude of 'don't worry we have quick upgrades' has to fricking stop! It is because of this garbage attitude that fo's are not even getting a small pay increase to fly the bigger equipment (not that the captain increase is even close to enough). That is selling this profession short in my book. But I guess you negotiate what you think you worth...
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Top 10 reasons to go to comair
WOW haven't heard this pile of crap in a few weeks. Let's see 4+2+1. OK seven years until a new deal. You may not like "quick upgrades" but reality is that many people make decisions on where to work on how long it will take them to get to the left seat. You know nimtz, every FO here was freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee to vote no. Nobody has made any promises to them for a quick upgrade. This whole industry is a crap shoot. Maybe tomorrow Airways goes out of business and we furlough. Maybe we get more planes for DAL or AA or maybe United. Success in this industry is being in the right place at the right time.
So, choosing between CHQ and Comair. Roll the dice and pick a place you think your quality of life will be the greatest. The place that pays the most does not always promise you a good QOL. I may not be as highly paid as a Comair Capt. but my QOL is sure better than some folks I know over there. And I am sure some folks at Comair have it better than people here.
Oh, I am worth 500,000 a year. How bout you?
nimtz said:
WOW haven't heard this pile of crap in a few weeks. Let's see 4+2+1. OK seven years until a new deal. You may not like "quick upgrades" but reality is that many people make decisions on where to work on how long it will take them to get to the left seat. You know nimtz, every FO here was freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee to vote no. Nobody has made any promises to them for a quick upgrade. This whole industry is a crap shoot. Maybe tomorrow Airways goes out of business and we furlough. Maybe we get more planes for DAL or AA or maybe United. Success in this industry is being in the right place at the right time.
So, choosing between CHQ and Comair. Roll the dice and pick a place you think your quality of life will be the greatest. The place that pays the most does not always promise you a good QOL. I may not be as highly paid as a Comair Capt. but my QOL is sure better than some folks I know over there. And I am sure some folks at Comair have it better than people here.
Oh, I am worth 500,000 a year. How bout you?
embraerdriver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2003
- Posts
- 108
FurloughedAgain said:"I too was an fo for 2.5 years "
Two and a half WHOLE years? You poor s.o.b!!!
<-- F/O for 8 of the last 10 years and mildly sarcastic supporter of F/O rights
Who's the real "poor" s.o.b.? ; and who is the captain? You could have quit all that fo for 8 years crap and been a captain at most regionals in half of that.. Oh well. It's all about the decisions you make! You made some that didn't turn out so well...oh by the way "lick my plums" if your going to be a jealous beatch.
embraerdriver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2003
- Posts
- 108
Here's some more crap for those of you trying to decide where you might want to work................ more holier than thou crap!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message from Comair MEC Chairman
DATE: November 30, 2003
TO: All Comair Pilots
FROM: Captain J.C. Lawson
Chairman, Comair Master Executive Council
SUBJECT: A Snapshot in Turbulent Times
As most of us know well, mainline Delta management has enjoined Delta pilots at the mid-contract negotiating table. It's "old news" that Delta mainline faces financial challenges, both immediate and long term. Delta management believes they can only overcome their financial shortfalls if mainline Delta pilots willingly contribute, by way of concessions, and particularly, pay cuts. Sensing a target of opportunity, Delta Connection, Inc. (DCI) (dba Comair) has invited Comair pilots to offer "relief" from our own Contract, specifically citing reduced pay rates, among other things.
Comair management has characterized their "need" for contractual relief as an "Opportunity for Growth", and bases their need on their claim that it's not about financial "survival", (i.e., we're not in danger of bankruptcy - we're profitable), but rather that Comair is not competitive when compared to other airlines within, and outside of DCI. While they have never offered guarantees of growth, they have claimed that forty-five airframes "might" become available if we "cut (crew) costs".
Due diligence dictated that we solicit data that expresses Comair's financial performance and justifies their alleged needs. Comair provided, and we retained the economic experts at ALPA's Economic and Financial Analysis (E&FA) to assist us in analyzing that data. The analyses revealed that Comair is, in fact, profitable, i.e., we're making money today within our current crew cost structure, and that, based upon standard industry financial performance indicators, Comair is also competitive, today, without taking concessions from our employees, specifically Comair pilots.
Having established all of that, and setting it aside momentarily, still, we view virtually every page of our Contract as "legal tender". Since Delta (dba Comair) management wants something we possess, we may be able to find some common interests to support mutually beneficial discussions. Therefore, we view our management's need as a potential investment opportunity for Comair pilots. In the event our management is willing to pay a "reasonable price" for whatever we have that they want, we may be previewing an opportunity to improve our future beyond what we have today.
Our position is enviable. We are under absolutely no obligation to negotiate any changes to our current working agreement. Should we discover, at any time, that the return on any investment we may consider is less than worthwhile, we could withdraw immediately, without penalty, from all negotiations.
Another foreboding piece to this complex puzzle now rises: The Request for Proposal (RFP). Delta (dba Delta Connection, Inc.) has solicited an RFP that entices the eight selected participants (CMR, ASA, CHQ, SKW, CALEX, PCL, MSA, and MAG) to "bid" on the offering, with the award
going, ostensibly, to the lowest bidder. DCI has expanded its
"portfolio" to non-DCI carriers within the Delta-Continental-Northwest
Alliance, and we have expanded our communications and coordination to
accommodate the new and expanded DCI RFP participant pilot groups.
Isn't it interesting that management calls the Delta-Continental-Northwest relationship an "alliance" while, simultaneously, they openly encourage internal, cutthroat competition specifically designed to reduce employee pay and benefits, and they refer to that as "capitalism at its best".
To date, the offering appears to be forty-five 50-seat jets to be
delivered during 2005 and 2006. This launches a "bidding war" that
formally introduces a treacherous "race to the bottom". DCI is finally
transmitting their concessionary aspirations "in the clear". One can
only guess where that "graveyard spin" could end. If all goes per
management's design, somebody could conceivably fly those jets for free!
Sound ominous? There is a bright side. We are ALPA. We have many
allies. There's us, and then there are more of us at ASA. The Comair
and ASA MEC's have been in direct communications constantly, meeting
jointly, routinely, for years, and we're meeting again on December 4th.
We have good friends flying ASA airplanes. They trust us, and we trust
them. There will be no bidding war. We will not "low ball" one
another. Our intra-MEC communications has been continuous, frank, and
candid. Our relationship is strong, built on honesty and trust.
Comair MEC members have been in the Comair pilots' lounge, face-to-face
with most of our pilots since early in September. Since early spring,
we've been expecting our management to seek concessions and we've
planned accordingly; we've been ahead of the wave, and intend to keep
you out in front.
Delta may send 50-seat jets to any of the other "competitors" within the RFP to prove that they can; to suggest that they're willing to allow Comair to "wither on the vine" unless we agree to take reductions in our current Contract. Well, OK, maybe they can, but that is akin to "cutting off your nose to spite your face". We wonder just how long Delta's stockholders would tolerate such obstinate behavior while we are generating the profits and slowing the hemorrhaging that threatens Delta's long-term health and survival.
In the spring of 2001, Delta (dba Comair) managed to squander many hundreds of millions of dollars to sustain a strike on Comair property that former Delta CEO, Mr. Leo Mullin, later characterized as "unfortunate". In a recent article for Commuter/Regional Airline News entitled "Regional Jets 'Critical' In U.S. Airlines' return to Profitability", Mr. Doug Abbey, Executive Director of the Regional Air Service Initiative (RASI) wrote:
"As the legacy majors restructure, regional carriers continue to expand the choice of air service available to American cities, focusing on adding new market-pairs, the majority of which were never served nonstop before. Not surprisingly, the number of routes where RJs replaced major carrier jets accounted for only a small portion (4%) of all new service. This confirms that small capacity jets are critical if the U.S. airline industry is ever to return to profitable growth."
The world is watching, yet again, to judge Delta's financial wisdom should they threaten now to "bite the hand that feeds them". By all indications, Delta needs every seat and every airframe it can fly, and more, to remain competitive. Sitting any of its assets "on the bench" is not likely a prudent or "competitive" choice.
As we step back for a clearer view, we believe this is not about forty-five 50-seat jets that are due for delivery in 2005 and 2006. It's definitely not about bankruptcy or our profitability. It's not even about our competitiveness. This is about "potential" growth beyond '05 and '06, to '08, '10, '12, and so on. It is about cutting Comair crew costs to drive Comair's operating costs below what the market will bear to improve Delta's "bottom line". It's about plundering employee pay and benefits to enhance Delta's profit margins. It's about reviving a "B" scale pay rate, this time within the small jet structure, and establishing a foothold to perpetuate its use in the future. This is about forcing the industry "pendulum" to swing past market equilibrium to an artificial imbalance that, this time, favors management. Sadly, an imbalance in any environment is temporary, harmful over time, and still an imbalance, no matter whom it favors. It invites turmoil and unrest, and if imposed, is destined to suffer another violent and c
ostly recoil.
Finally, before competing airlines can operate at "cut rates", they must first negotiate those sub-standard rates with their respective pilot groups. Herein lays our front line of defense. We are already
communicating regularly with all carrier pilot groups within the DCI RFP to encourage them to resist this "race to the bottom", fueled by an RFP "bidding war", and ignited by suggestions of potential future growth. Additionally, we are communicating and coordinating with the Leadership of the Delta pilot group. Our communications with these carriers have been productive, and universally recognized as a unified determination to resist this classic, regressive whipsaw tactic.
We will soon know where this "potential investment opportunity" will lead, and we will communicate further as new information becomes available.
__________________
Dan Pignotti
Whatever!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message from Comair MEC Chairman
DATE: November 30, 2003
TO: All Comair Pilots
FROM: Captain J.C. Lawson
Chairman, Comair Master Executive Council
SUBJECT: A Snapshot in Turbulent Times
As most of us know well, mainline Delta management has enjoined Delta pilots at the mid-contract negotiating table. It's "old news" that Delta mainline faces financial challenges, both immediate and long term. Delta management believes they can only overcome their financial shortfalls if mainline Delta pilots willingly contribute, by way of concessions, and particularly, pay cuts. Sensing a target of opportunity, Delta Connection, Inc. (DCI) (dba Comair) has invited Comair pilots to offer "relief" from our own Contract, specifically citing reduced pay rates, among other things.
Comair management has characterized their "need" for contractual relief as an "Opportunity for Growth", and bases their need on their claim that it's not about financial "survival", (i.e., we're not in danger of bankruptcy - we're profitable), but rather that Comair is not competitive when compared to other airlines within, and outside of DCI. While they have never offered guarantees of growth, they have claimed that forty-five airframes "might" become available if we "cut (crew) costs".
Due diligence dictated that we solicit data that expresses Comair's financial performance and justifies their alleged needs. Comair provided, and we retained the economic experts at ALPA's Economic and Financial Analysis (E&FA) to assist us in analyzing that data. The analyses revealed that Comair is, in fact, profitable, i.e., we're making money today within our current crew cost structure, and that, based upon standard industry financial performance indicators, Comair is also competitive, today, without taking concessions from our employees, specifically Comair pilots.
Having established all of that, and setting it aside momentarily, still, we view virtually every page of our Contract as "legal tender". Since Delta (dba Comair) management wants something we possess, we may be able to find some common interests to support mutually beneficial discussions. Therefore, we view our management's need as a potential investment opportunity for Comair pilots. In the event our management is willing to pay a "reasonable price" for whatever we have that they want, we may be previewing an opportunity to improve our future beyond what we have today.
Our position is enviable. We are under absolutely no obligation to negotiate any changes to our current working agreement. Should we discover, at any time, that the return on any investment we may consider is less than worthwhile, we could withdraw immediately, without penalty, from all negotiations.
Another foreboding piece to this complex puzzle now rises: The Request for Proposal (RFP). Delta (dba Delta Connection, Inc.) has solicited an RFP that entices the eight selected participants (CMR, ASA, CHQ, SKW, CALEX, PCL, MSA, and MAG) to "bid" on the offering, with the award
going, ostensibly, to the lowest bidder. DCI has expanded its
"portfolio" to non-DCI carriers within the Delta-Continental-Northwest
Alliance, and we have expanded our communications and coordination to
accommodate the new and expanded DCI RFP participant pilot groups.
Isn't it interesting that management calls the Delta-Continental-Northwest relationship an "alliance" while, simultaneously, they openly encourage internal, cutthroat competition specifically designed to reduce employee pay and benefits, and they refer to that as "capitalism at its best".
To date, the offering appears to be forty-five 50-seat jets to be
delivered during 2005 and 2006. This launches a "bidding war" that
formally introduces a treacherous "race to the bottom". DCI is finally
transmitting their concessionary aspirations "in the clear". One can
only guess where that "graveyard spin" could end. If all goes per
management's design, somebody could conceivably fly those jets for free!
Sound ominous? There is a bright side. We are ALPA. We have many
allies. There's us, and then there are more of us at ASA. The Comair
and ASA MEC's have been in direct communications constantly, meeting
jointly, routinely, for years, and we're meeting again on December 4th.
We have good friends flying ASA airplanes. They trust us, and we trust
them. There will be no bidding war. We will not "low ball" one
another. Our intra-MEC communications has been continuous, frank, and
candid. Our relationship is strong, built on honesty and trust.
Comair MEC members have been in the Comair pilots' lounge, face-to-face
with most of our pilots since early in September. Since early spring,
we've been expecting our management to seek concessions and we've
planned accordingly; we've been ahead of the wave, and intend to keep
you out in front.
Delta may send 50-seat jets to any of the other "competitors" within the RFP to prove that they can; to suggest that they're willing to allow Comair to "wither on the vine" unless we agree to take reductions in our current Contract. Well, OK, maybe they can, but that is akin to "cutting off your nose to spite your face". We wonder just how long Delta's stockholders would tolerate such obstinate behavior while we are generating the profits and slowing the hemorrhaging that threatens Delta's long-term health and survival.
In the spring of 2001, Delta (dba Comair) managed to squander many hundreds of millions of dollars to sustain a strike on Comair property that former Delta CEO, Mr. Leo Mullin, later characterized as "unfortunate". In a recent article for Commuter/Regional Airline News entitled "Regional Jets 'Critical' In U.S. Airlines' return to Profitability", Mr. Doug Abbey, Executive Director of the Regional Air Service Initiative (RASI) wrote:
"As the legacy majors restructure, regional carriers continue to expand the choice of air service available to American cities, focusing on adding new market-pairs, the majority of which were never served nonstop before. Not surprisingly, the number of routes where RJs replaced major carrier jets accounted for only a small portion (4%) of all new service. This confirms that small capacity jets are critical if the U.S. airline industry is ever to return to profitable growth."
The world is watching, yet again, to judge Delta's financial wisdom should they threaten now to "bite the hand that feeds them". By all indications, Delta needs every seat and every airframe it can fly, and more, to remain competitive. Sitting any of its assets "on the bench" is not likely a prudent or "competitive" choice.
As we step back for a clearer view, we believe this is not about forty-five 50-seat jets that are due for delivery in 2005 and 2006. It's definitely not about bankruptcy or our profitability. It's not even about our competitiveness. This is about "potential" growth beyond '05 and '06, to '08, '10, '12, and so on. It is about cutting Comair crew costs to drive Comair's operating costs below what the market will bear to improve Delta's "bottom line". It's about plundering employee pay and benefits to enhance Delta's profit margins. It's about reviving a "B" scale pay rate, this time within the small jet structure, and establishing a foothold to perpetuate its use in the future. This is about forcing the industry "pendulum" to swing past market equilibrium to an artificial imbalance that, this time, favors management. Sadly, an imbalance in any environment is temporary, harmful over time, and still an imbalance, no matter whom it favors. It invites turmoil and unrest, and if imposed, is destined to suffer another violent and c
ostly recoil.
Finally, before competing airlines can operate at "cut rates", they must first negotiate those sub-standard rates with their respective pilot groups. Herein lays our front line of defense. We are already
communicating regularly with all carrier pilot groups within the DCI RFP to encourage them to resist this "race to the bottom", fueled by an RFP "bidding war", and ignited by suggestions of potential future growth. Additionally, we are communicating and coordinating with the Leadership of the Delta pilot group. Our communications with these carriers have been productive, and universally recognized as a unified determination to resist this classic, regressive whipsaw tactic.
We will soon know where this "potential investment opportunity" will lead, and we will communicate further as new information becomes available.
__________________
Dan Pignotti
Whatever!
FurloughedAgain
Cabin Heating & Air Tech.
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2002
- Posts
- 1,657
You could have quit all that fo for 8 years crap and been a captain at most regionals in half of that
Its all about the decisions we make huh? Then I and the other 11,999 furloughed major airline pilots screwed up by leaving our cushy regional/national airline jobs and moving on?
If United, Delta, American, US Airways called you I'm sure you would stay right where you are...making the right decision.
I'd love to see your crystal ball... but i'm not "sucking your plums" for the privilege my friend.
Its all about the decisions we make huh? Then I and the other 11,999 furloughed major airline pilots screwed up by leaving our cushy regional/national airline jobs and moving on?
If United, Delta, American, US Airways called you I'm sure you would stay right where you are...making the right decision.
I'd love to see your crystal ball... but i'm not "sucking your plums" for the privilege my friend.
embraerdriver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2003
- Posts
- 108
FurloughedAgain said:
Now that I have seen what major airlines do, yes I would and am staying here for the foreseeable future.
I despise everything major airlines represent. I am ashamed of what "you " think were worth. Tell me something, why not pay a bus driver $250,000 per year? It is more dangerous to ride the bus isn't it?
The fact of the matter is that I hate smiling at major airline pilots and nodding and playing the game with the jumpseats, and being courteous. I have only been in this industry for 3.5 years and I'll be **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed if major pilots are going to blame me and regional pilots for the state of the industry. You guys and gals and your predecessors got greedy years back and decided airline pilots should make a quarter million dollars a year. NOT ME! You are the reason the industry is broke. NOT ME or any regional pilot! Frankly, I'm pissed that left with such a huge responsibility your greedy a$$e$ let me down and ruined it for me and others at the regionals. You and ALPA and everyone else in your upper poop level.
This is not what I signed on for but I am flexible enough to put up and make the best of it.
Now post 9/11 you'll are backpedaling something fierce and you hate yourselves and those you associate with for it. Realize this Mr. Major-the industry has evolved and if I never get to be number 10,000 on the DAL list then thats fine. I no longer aspire to be a jerk licking my wounds for the rest of my career.
Life is too short, but for the record I'd rather have a cushy regional job with some weekends off based at home, making $70k.
NOPE! I won't make that decision and I am not your friend!
Your turn!
rptrain
Probationary Member
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2002
- Posts
- 199
schizophrenic much?
You CHQ guys don't know whether you're comin' or goin'.
On the one hand we have industry savvy TWAER, who reminds us:
but then his partner in crime, embraerdriver, opines:
why is it that CHQ guys are always chaising their tails trying to rationalize their behavior?
Instead of saying,
"Yeah, our contract's not the best, but we did the best we could. Here's to working with the other pilot groups to our mutual benefit!"
they say,
"Our contract is the same as everyone else's! Who cares if the FO pay is lousy; I upgraded in two years! Comair's MEC is a bunch of self-righteous blowhards!"
I'm going to get upset every time I hear the same tired old rationalizations about low FO pay and the weak arguments comparing CHQ's contract to other carriers with clearly better agreements. Especially when it always seems to come from the folks who have already "got theirs." You can try to sell the faster-upgrade-means-better-company line all you want; JO's out pounding the pavement with this message 24/7. Pardon me if I refuse to buy it.
"lick my plums" and "jealous beatch?" Sounds like the witty rejoinders from someone who's all grown up.
You CHQ guys don't know whether you're comin' or goin'.
On the one hand we have industry savvy TWAER, who reminds us:
but then his partner in crime, embraerdriver, opines:
embraerdriver said:
why is it that CHQ guys are always chaising their tails trying to rationalize their behavior?
Instead of saying,
"Yeah, our contract's not the best, but we did the best we could. Here's to working with the other pilot groups to our mutual benefit!"
they say,
"Our contract is the same as everyone else's! Who cares if the FO pay is lousy; I upgraded in two years! Comair's MEC is a bunch of self-righteous blowhards!"
I'm going to get upset every time I hear the same tired old rationalizations about low FO pay and the weak arguments comparing CHQ's contract to other carriers with clearly better agreements. Especially when it always seems to come from the folks who have already "got theirs." You can try to sell the faster-upgrade-means-better-company line all you want; JO's out pounding the pavement with this message 24/7. Pardon me if I refuse to buy it.
"lick my plums" and "jealous beatch?" Sounds like the witty rejoinders from someone who's all grown up.
embraerdriver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2003
- Posts
- 108
- Status
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
