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Lynxman

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Doesnt an app. controller have your flight plan in front of them? I took a flight today that turned into a massive fiasco because the controller wasn't sure what I wanted to do, but my flight plan was very clear. Sorry just frustrated at today's outcome.
 

Lrjtcaptain

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well...not the entire flight plan. If the route is long it doesn't show the entire thing. At ORD we basically only see the first few things like
ORD MOBLE ADIME GERBS../LGA so we see the first few fixes you want but not everything. The TRACON would get that same info. Really only the things that pertain to them. Elaborate a bit more on where you were flying out of, where you were flying to, and what it is exactly you wanted to do.
 

Lynxman

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I was flying up to KJVL from KDPA, flight was filed as a round robin back to KDPA. So direct DPA V172 Nuelg V177 JVL practice approaches then back the exact same way I came. On the ground we held for our release took off 28 from KDPA Left turn to 270. I contacted dep. on 33.5 and they cleared us up to 4000 that was the last I heard from them. Which is normal for GA in chicago. So we were flying 270 5 mins pass then 10 so I'm trying to get on the radios but it was busy as heck when we were up so now we pass nuelg and V177 and right when I'm about to get on the radio I get some attitude from the controller she goes "1HG what do you want to do? Are you going back to KDPA or what?" Her tone of voice is what made me mad. Doesn't she see that my filed flight was to take me to JVL? We were cleard to KDPA via Radar vectors climb maintain 3000 etc. etc. So with that clearance we did like we were supposed to and held that 270 departure heading. I was expecting them to vector me onto V177? Maybe I'm wrong but the whole flight was a disaster.
 

AC560

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"1HG what do you want to do? Are you going back to KDPA or what?" Her tone of voice is what made me mad. Doesn't she see that my filed flight was to take me to JVL? We were cleard to KDPA via Radar vectors climb maintain 3000

You should have filed 2 flight plans. The controller is seeing your destination as KDPA and your departure as KDPA which is going to cause confusion.

I am also going to assume the "? We were cleard to KDPA via Radar vectors" is a typo. But if that is what you were cleared for then you were cleared from KDPA to KDPA via radar vectors, you were not cleared on any other route of flight (including going to KJVL).

Your flight plan is a request to ATC, your clearance is what you are expected to fly. They don't always end up being the same.
 

Lynxman

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The thing is Ive filed that route ie. round robin literally hundreds of times and never had a problem with it before. There is no typo, what we were cleared for is correct we were cleared to KDPA via RV which means they would RV us onto V177 which would take us on our way to KJVL and then the same flight plan would take us back so in essence we were cleared to KDPA via RV.
 

AC560

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what we were cleared for is correct we were cleared to KDPA via RV which means they would RV us onto V177 which would take us on our way to KJVL and then the same flight plan would take us back so in essence we were cleared to KDPA via RV.

Cleared to KDPA via radar vectors means you are cleared from your present position to KDPA via radar vectors. It does not mean cleared via RV's to XX to V177 then as filed.

You are confusing what you filed for versus the clearance you got.
 

Lynxman

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I'd like someone else to chime in on that because thats not how I understood or learned it.
 

Lrjtcaptain

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Yeah, you should file 2 flight plans to avoid any confusion or at a minimum put in the remarks you want instrument approaches at JVL. We get Mx flights at ORD alot that do round robins.....they file weird stuff like ORD..JOT..ORD. Not happening that way. We usually ask the pilot as they taxi out what there intentions are. Some literally want to just fly a pattern. Fine, coordinate it with C90 and as long as there aren't major delay issues they are gone. If i were you I would file to JVL with remarks of multiple instrument approaches. Have the JVL DPA filed as well and pick that one up once you are done doing your practice approaches. Bottom line....JVL and other nearby airports are handled as tower enroutes most the time. You can expect to be radar vectored the majority of the way. If your flight plan showed DPA as origin and Dest.....then you may confuse the controller becuase they aren't going to see everything you requested unless you put something in the remarks sections.

as for clarification on your route, re examine what you've been taught. Just cause you filed it doesn't mean your gonna get it. If you get a clearence of cleared to lets say JVL via Radar vectors....they aren't radar vectoring you to your victor airway, its to the airport. if you were cleared to JVL via heading 270 expect radar vectors to Nuelg then as filed.....then its vectors to the fix then you fly your filed route. Get what you've been taught out of your head, it will get you in trouble later on. If you don't hear "Then as filed" you aren't going to do anything you filed. If i were you, i'd call DPA tower, get the standard routes and altitudes they use to the nearby airports, or get prefered routes from the AFD, cause more then likely you'll get those. Don't ever expect to do what you filed. When i flew corporate back in the day. I just filed direct for everything unless I knew i wasn't going to get it.
 
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Lynxman

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Thanks for the clarification. Ya I put in practice approaches at KJVL to help clarify the situation.
 

AC560

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Thanks for the clarification. Ya I put in practice approaches at KJVL to help clarify the situation.

You still seem to be viewing this as some sort of error which ATC made as opposed to errors on your part. I don't mean this in an attacking way, but you should really read through what has been posted and review clearance procedures with you CFII.
 

Lynxman

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It was my II ride to be exact and even the FAA examiner said the same though so you tell me who's right?
 

Singlecoil

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The controller was right. It has been my experience that the FAA examiners know very little about working the IFR system. Some have never been commercial pilots (working regularly) at all.
Your filed route confused the controller, she was busy and asked you what your plain English intentions were. That is totally reasonable. As has been said on here, had you filed 2 flight plans, your intentions would have been obvious. File one flight plan, and expect at some point to be queried about what it is you are planning on doing.
 

2ndGenPSA

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I was a CFII in Chicago, out of PWK.

We always filed two flight plans in this instance. The controllers are busy with regular flights, and it helps them when you make your flight look as "regular" as possible. It's not that you were "wrong" to file round-robin, but in the Chicago area, this is just increasing everyone's work load. They don't have time to sit down and discuss with you what your plans are!

When you begin teaching, you will learn how to get creative with filing flight plans, picking them up in the air, using local IFR clearances, etc. For check rides, stick to the basics i.e. file one flight plan for each destination. It will help you immensely to get into a control tower and talk with your local controllers as to what they want/expect. Every locale is different... ugh.

DID YOU PASS!?!?!?!?!?
 

Lynxman

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No didn't pass for some stupid reason I turned 50 degrees instead of 90 on the published DME arc at KJVL. For next time I'm going to file the 2 separate, because the less confusion I need on a check ride or for a student the better.
 

AC560

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It was my II ride to be exact and even the FAA examiner said the same though so you tell me who's right?

AC560 said "Cleared to KDPA via radar vectors means you are cleared from your present position to KDPA via radar vectors. It does not mean cleared via RV's to XX to V177 then as filed.

You are confusing what you filed for versus the clearance you got."


Lynxman said "I'd like someone else to chime in on that because thats not how I understood or learned it."

I can almost with 100% certainity assure you the FAA Examiner didn't think when the controller said "Cleared to KDPA via Radar Vectors" that you were going to fly any routing other then radar vectors to KDPA. Again not trying to break your stones but take all the confusion of not filing 2 flight plans away, it appears you aren't clear on the clearances you are being given and are confusing a clearance and a flight plan.

There is a lot of good information in this thread you should review it all with your II instructing your for you II and it will make your next checkride a lot smoother. Good luck.
 
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