Check list vs Do list

[GravityHater]

I need to learn more about their differences, the pros and cons and would like to know how most people are using their cockpit 'lists'.

I have always been taught as each phase of flight comes up, pull the appropriate list and go down it one by one, performing and confirming the action.

In a two pilot situation, the pnf reads, the pf performs, the pnf confirms each item as you go, then onto the next item.
(This would be the Do list, sometimes erroneously called the Checklist.)


Is this guy just giving me a hard time over semantics??

 

[FR8mastr]

Using a check list as a do list will eventually make you a slave to the list. You wont be able to do anything without consulting your list.
The airlines that I am familiar with all have flows, in which you do all that needs to be done, followed by, at the appropriate time, a check list to check that everything is accomplished

 

[Launchpad]

A checklist is just that, a list to check stuff that should already be done. Your doing your checks as a do list. There are appropriate times for either and usually clearly defined in your particular op specs, and because this is flightinfo..... your gonna hear from all the experts!

good luck

 

[Say Again Over]

In a two pilot situation, the pnf reads, the pf performs, the pnf confirms each item as you go, then onto the next item.
(This would be the Do list, sometimes erroneously called the Checklist.)

Well it's not that simple, I am not passing myself off as an expert but for instance, my company checklist has a little of both, for instance: When I am PF, I do a memorized flow, fuel pumps on, seat belt sign on, CVR on, then I ask for the BEFORE START checklist, he reads and I confirm, after starting engines, I move the Start Mode switch to NORMAL and deselect APU BLEED, this triggers the other guy to do a memorized flow, TRIM, FLAPS, NWS etc., I give the guy some time to do his flow before calling for the After Start Checklist, so, this is more of a checking list than a read and do list, then where I work our EVAC checklist is a read and perform philosophy. What I don't like is when you have something like a After Landing Checklist that makes the PF take his eyes of the task of taxiing the aircraft, I feel in this situation the PNF can READ and DO silently for a safer operation, sorry to ramble on.

 

[DGdaPilot]

At Eagle, I do flows for all phases of flight. After it's complete, I back it all up with the checklist. In training they refer to our After Landing checklist as a "do" list, but that's dumb. It's much easier and efficient to do a flow and then use the checklist on that one too.

 

[VNugget]

I was always amused by the checklist in the 172 POH that goes something like "TAKEOFF: - apply full power - maintain crosswind correction - rotate at X knots" etc.

Reminds me of the German guy in Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines.

 

[GravityHater]

If you do flows and then backup with a checklist after takeoff, then the pnf is putting gear, flaps, slats up of his own accord (that is who physically handles that stuff in my planes)......and then the captain or pf is no longer flying the ship!

"HEY! I'm not ready for flaps up!"

 

[Brett Hull]

I think you're jumping the gun a bit. The PNF (or PM as they're now called) doesn't do anything with the gear & flaps until he's commanded by the PF. When a safe altitude is reached the PF calls for "after takeoff checklist". This is when the flows are accomplished, and then the checklist is ran to determine everything is done.

 

[Say Again Over]

I was always amused by the checklist in the 172 POH that goes something like "TAKEOFF: - apply full power - maintain crosswind correction - rotate at X knots" etc.

We all know that's to keep the lawyers happy or some dumb a$$ will try a takeoff with 50% power.

 

[TrafficInSight]

I was always amused by the checklist in the 172 POH that goes something like "TAKEOFF: - apply full power - maintain crosswind correction - rotate at X knots" etc.

Reminds me of the German guy in Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines.

Step One.... sit down.

 

[DGdaPilot]

I think you're jumping the gun a bit. The PNF (or PM as they're now called) doesn't do anything with the gear & flaps until he's commanded by the PF. When a safe altitude is reached the PF calls for "after takeoff checklist". This is when the flows are accomplished, and then the checklist is ran to determine everything is done.

Exactly, my friend. I'm glad someone gets it. :beer:

 

[tomgoodman]

Get it on the tape

We all know that's to keep the lawyers happy ....

True. As an aviation (defense) lawyer explained to a gathering of airline LCAs: "In a lawsuit over an accident, compensatory damages are fairly routine--but what we really want to avoid is punitive damages. If the tape shows any carelessness, such as checklists not being done exactly as prescribed, that door is opened--even if the particular checklist had nothing to do with the accident."

 

[GravityHater]

I guess I am resigned to remain in a state of confusion. There is no way on earth I can remember hundreds of lines of checklists for all the aircraft I fly.
I can remember gear, flaps, set climb power, anti-ice, critical stuff like that but most of these lists are too huge, too detailed to remember everything and to do them in the order listed. Scanning the panel and controls to check that every last switch, knob, lever, and dial is in order is a waste of time...time that needs to be spent watching for traffic or preparing for an approach etc. - at least on most of the a/c I fly - there are simply too many of them... Say there are 200 individual items and you give each one or two seconds and allow NO time to scan anything else - thats like 3 to 5 minutes doing a 'flow'.
It just seems much more efficient and safer to
-identify the new phase of flight such as 'after take-off' or 'descent',
-pull out the 'Do' List if you will,
-pnf reads and pf accomplishes; pnf confirms each action with a finger on the list.
It gets done right, it gets done in a timely manner, it gets done in order, nothing gets missed.

Help!

 

[DGdaPilot]

Well there's your problem. We here at the airlines typically only fly 1 aircraft, or at least multiple aircraft that have similarities (ie: CRJs, ATRs, ERJs, etc, etc).

 

[FR8mastr]

Gravity, I dont think you are understanding what the flows are all about.
You do not check each item every time. The flows for the different check lists are appopriate to that phase of flight. Dont overcomplicate it. Work on developing flows you are comfortable with for your aircraft. dont include everything, just the critical items for that phase then follow that with the checks An example would be, every cruise list tells you to check engine ints. I would be willing to be you have been doing that all along. Doing these as a do list will bite you in the but one day.

 

[GravityHater]

Doing these as a do list will bite you in the but one day.

All that was helpful, thanks.

This last note interests me and might provide the final push I need to fix this issue, tell me more please.

 

[Cardinal]

I have always been taught as each phase of flight comes up, pull the appropriate list and go down it one by one, performing and confirming the action

You've "always been taught" that way because it's a heck of alot easier to teach that way. Initial flight training in pursuit of the private is a monumental stack of information, making students memorize established flows to complement good checklist usage would add to that burden. It might work in some Part 141 environments, but not at the Grace L. Ferguson Flight School and Storm Door Company. It makes the instructors job much easier when they can hand an exhaustive checklist to the student and just say "do it." At least things generally get done, and the instructor can save his breath for other things.

It works, but it's still not the best way. As an aspiring professional pilot (presumably) you should be in the loop to a greater degeree. Regarding normal procedures, you should have a sufficient grasp of the systems, operating environment, and situation to know to prime the engine when it's cold, know when your nav lights should be on, know why it's vital to turn on an electric fuel pump at certain times, have selected a flap setting, etc. After you've accomplished all these operational necessities, you can blow through the checklist at high speed and minimize heads down time.

Call it a flow, call it vorschtein, call it airmanship, whatever. Regardless, you're the pilot, fly the airplane, the checklist should only be a backup to your overall situational awareness. I thinks that what FR8Mastr was getting at. Only exception should be non-memory item abnormal procedures.

 

[FN FAL]

I guess I am resigned to remain in a state of confusion. There is no way on earth I can remember hundreds of lines of checklists for all the aircraft I fly.

Theory pilots, that what the DZO calls them.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Checklist vrs. Do List.....

OK what do you think? I'm a DPE and I'm giving a Commercial Pilot test in an Arrow. I tell the applicant that the checklist is missing so proceed as you wish. Some say they'll cancel the flight because of no checklist. Some insist on using out the POH checklist. Some say no problem and go anyway.

If you have NO checklist on board and decide to go anyway, here is a good mental checklist to use.

CC-CIGAR.

Controls
Canopy (Door)
Cowl Flaps
Instruments
Gas
Attitude (Trim)
Runup

Your questions and/or comments are welcome

 

[sargeanb]

My school has always taught flows, from day 1 (yes, even in the 172). The students who perform "read and do" in flight usually take about twice as long to perform their tasks, and are less situationally aware (looking inside too much and not flying the airplane). Flow-type checklists take more study and experience, but I've found they are much more efficient.

Items that are not time-pertinent such as preflight and after engine start, can usually be put on a "read and do" list. And with more complex airplanes, the checklists get longer, and "read and do" type lists become more and more cumbersome. As was mentioned above, they method used depends onthe company and equipment, but from what I understand, the majority use flows and checklists.