CFII training an IFR student in a Multi without MEI..

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

Okay, here's the scenario: you have a Multi rated Commercial pilot, either rated already on instruments, or just going for currency; you also have a CFII who's Multi-instrument rated. Can the CFII give instruction for instrument proficiency, or towards an instrument rating in the twin without the MEI?

I say yes because the pilot is already "rated" in the aircraft and he's receiving training for Instrument purposes.

 

[JediNein]

From the horse's mouth.... The following stopped an FAA enforcement action in its tracks. Yes, it has been backed up by FAA National Legal and if you've done any research, the guy in Eastern Region is 'changing' his opinion. ~Jedi Nein
_________________________

Q&A-641 October 5, 2004

QUESTION: A person holds a Flight Instructor Certificate - Instrument Airplane only and wants to give instrument flight training on avionics in a multiengine land airplane (for example in a Cessna 310). The training that the flight instructor will be giving is not for the purpose of furtherance of a pilot certificate or rating. The training is merely for educational/informative purposes. The instrument flight training will be on: Air Traffic Control Clearances and Procedures - Holding Procedures; Navigation Systems - Intercepting and Tracking Navigational Systems and DMC ARCs; and Emergency Operations - Loss of Communications and Loss of Gyro Attitude and/or Heading Indicators.

What are the flight instructor certificate and ratings, pilot certificate and ratings, and flight experience the person must have to be in compliance with § 61.195(b) and (c)? Does the flight instructor have to have logged 5 hours of PIC flight experience in the Cessna 310?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.195(b), (c), and (f); The person must hold at least the following:

Flight Instructor Certificate
Instrument-Airplane
&
Commercial Pilot Certificate
Instrument-Airplane
Airplane Multiengine Land

or

ATP Certificate
Airplane Multiengine Land

The flight instructor would only have to have logged 5 hours PIC flight time in a Cessna 310 if the training was for the furtherance of a certificate or rating. Since you specifically stated in your question that the training was not for the furtherance of a certificate or rating but was for merely for educational/informative purposes, then the answer is no, the flight instructor would not need to have logged 5 hours PIC flight time in a Cessna 310.
{Q&A 641}

QUESTION: A person holds a Flight Instructor Certificate-Instrument Airplane and wants to give instrument flight training on avionics in a turbojet type rated airplane (for example in a Cessna 500). The person receiving the instrument training is type rated and qualified as a PIC in the Cessna 500. The training that the flight instructor will be giving is not for the purpose of furtherance of a pilot certificate or rating. The training is merely for educational/informative purposes. The instrument flight training will be on: Air Traffic Control Clearances and Procedures - Holding Procedures; Navigation Systems - Intercepting and Tracking Navigational Systems and DMC ARCs; and Emergency Operations - Loss of Communications and Loss of Gyro Attitude and/or Heading Indicators.

What are flight instructor certificate and ratings, pilot certificate and ratings, and qualifications the person must have to be in compliance with § 61.195(b) and (c)? What flight instructor and pilot certificates and ratings must be held? Must the instructor hold a CE 500 type rating? Does the flight instructor have to have logged 5 hours of PIC flight experience in the Cessna 500?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.195(b), (c), (e), and (f); The person must hold at least the following:

Flight Instructor Certificate
Instrument-Airplane
&
Commercial Pilot Certificate
Instrument-Airplane
Airplane Multiengine Land
CE-500

or

ATP Certificate
Airplane Multiengine Land
CE-500

The flight instructor would only have to have logged 5 hours PIC flight time in a Cessna 500 if the training was for the furtherance of a certificate or rating. Since you specifically stated in your question that the training was not for the furtherance of a certificate or rating but was for merely for educational/informative purposes, then the answer is no, the flight instructor would not need to have logged 5 hours PIC flight time in a Cessna 500.

The flight instructor must hold a CE 500 type rating on his/her pilot certificate.
{Q&A 641}

QUESTION: A person holds a Flight Instructor Certificate-Instrument Airplane only and wants to conduct an Instrument Proficiency Check in a multiengine land airplane (for example in a Cessna 310). The Instrument Proficiency Check will require the flight instructor to test the pilot on Emergency Operations - Loss of Communications, One engine inoperative during straight and level flight and turns (Multiengine), One engine inoperative-instrument approach (Multiengine), and Loss of Gyro Attitude and/or Heading Indicators.

What are flight instructor certificate and ratings, pilot certificate and ratings, and qualifications the person must have to be in compliance with § 61.195(b) and (c)? Does the flight instructor have to have logged 5 hours of PIC flight experience in the Cessna 310?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.195(b)(1) and (c) and (f); The person must hold at least the following:

Flight Instructor Certificate
Instrument-Airplane
&
Commercial Pilot Certificate
Instrument-Airplane
Airplane Multiengine Land

or

ATP Certificate
Airplane Multiengine Land

The person must have logged at least 5 hours PIC flight time in a Cessna 310.
{Q&A 641}

QUESTION: A person holds a Flight Instructor Certificate-Instrument Airplane and wants to give an Instrument Proficiency Check in a turbojet type rated airplane (for example in a Cessna 500). The person receiving the Instrument Proficiency Check is type rated and qualified as a PIC in the Cessna 500. The Instrument Proficiency Check will require the flight instructor to test the pilot on Emergency Operations - Loss of Communications, One engine inoperative during straight and level flight and turns (Multiengine), One engine inoperative-instrument approach (Multiengine), and Loss of Gyro Attitude and/or Heading Indicators.

What are flight instructor certificate and ratings, pilot certificate and ratings, and qualifications the person must have to be in compliance with § 61.195(b) and (c)? What flight instructor and pilot certificates and ratings must be held? Must the instructor hold a CE 500 type rating? Does the flight instructor have to have logged 5 hours of PIC flight experience in the Cessna 500?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.195(b)(1) and (2), (c), (e), and (f); The person must hold at least the following:

Flight Instructor Certificate
Instrument-Airplane
&
Commercial Pilot Certificate
Instrument-Airplane
Airplane Multiengine Land
CE-500

or

ATP Certificate
Airplane Multiengine Land
CE-500

The person must have logged at least 5 hours PIC flight time in a Cessna 500. The flight instructor must hold a CE 500 type rating on his/her pilot certificate.
{Q&A 641}

QUESTION: Must the instructor occupy a pilot station in order to give the instrument flight training/Instrument Proficiency Check?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.195(g); The flight instructor would not necessarily need to occupy a pilot station. The instrument flight training/Instrument Proficiency Check may be given with the flight instructor in a jump seat or in a passenger seat that allows the flight instructor to view the pilot stations. Per, § 61.195(g), the flight instructor only needs to “. . . provide that flight training in an aircraft . . . .”
{Q&A 641}

QUESTION: If the flight training/Instrument Proficiency Check is going to be given in a turbojet type rated airplane (for example in a Cessna 500) and where the flight instructor is not going to be occupying a pilot station but is providing the instrument flight training/Instrument Proficiency Check from a jump seat or from passenger seat, may the flight instructor still be able to log the training time?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.51(e)(3); Yes, the flight instructor may log the flight training/Instrument Proficiency Check and also log the time as PIC flight time. This is permissible because § 61.51(e)(3) permits a flight instructor to “. . . log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.”
{Q&A 641}

QUESTION: If the flight training/Instrument Proficiency Check is going to be in a turbojet type rated airplane (for example in a Cessna 500) and where the flight instructor is not going to be occupying a pilot station but is providing the instrument flight training/Instrument Proficiency Check from a jump seat or from a passenger seat, is the flight instructor still required to hold the CE 500 type rating even when the flight instructor is not going to be occupying a pilot station?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.195(g); Yes, in order for the flight training/Instrument Proficiency Check to be creditable, the flight instructor would be required to hold the appropriate type rating (i.e., CE 500) even if the flight instructor is not occupying a pilot station.
{Q&A 641}

Inquiry from: Bridgette Doremire, MCFI

Answered by: John Lynch, AFS 840

NOTE: The FAA’s website for Q&As are located at the AFS 800 webpage [http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/afs800] at –
<http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/afs800/docs/pt61FAQ.doc> which are the Part 61 FAQs

<http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/afs800/docs/pt141FAQ.doc> which are the Part 141 FAQs.

NOTE: Additional document and linkage for the “Aeronautical Experience Check List” which is a file that contains an aeronautical experience checklist to assist in checking an applicant’s FAA Form 8710 1-Airman Certificate and/or Ratings: <http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/afs800/docs/aero-exp.doc>

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

So on this one "_________________________

Q&A-641 October 5, 2004

QUESTION: A person holds a Flight Instructor Certificate - Instrument Airplane only and wants to give instrument flight training on avionics in a multiengine land airplane (for example in a Cessna 310). The training that the flight instructor will be giving is not for the purpose of furtherance of a pilot certificate or rating. The training is merely for educational/informative purposes. The instrument flight training will be on: Air Traffic Control Clearances and Procedures - Holding Procedures; Navigation Systems - Intercepting and Tracking Navigational Systems and DMC ARCs; and Emergency Operations - Loss of Communications and Loss of Gyro Attitude and/or Heading Indicators.

What are the flight instructor certificate and ratings, pilot certificate and ratings, and flight experience the person must have to be in compliance with § 61.195(b) and (c)? Does the flight instructor have to have logged 5 hours of PIC flight experience in the Cessna 310?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.195(b), (c), and (f); The person must hold at least the following:

Flight Instructor Certificate Commercial Pilot Certificate
Instrument-Airplane Airplane Multiengine Land
Instrument-Airplane"
It's saying CFII and CMEL with the IFR ticket? The lines are a tad off from the copy and paste.

How do I get to the FAQ on the FAA's site, navigating that site takes skills.... Skills I have yet to acquire.

 

[JediNein]

The edit above should help clarify....
The website is: http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/afs800/docs/pt61FAQ.doc

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

You da man, thanks!

 

[Ralgha]

61.195(c) says "must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is provided."

It doesn't say that only the pilot certificate has to be appropriate to the cat/class. It says both must be.

John Lynch changed his mind on what is said in the 61 FAQ. Here's an interpretation on the subject:

---

JAN 6 2004

Capt Ronald B. Levy
Director, Aviation Sciences Program
University of Maryland Eastern Shore
30806 University Boulevard South
Princess Anne, MD 21853-1299

Dear Capt. Levy:

This responds to your request for an interpretation of 14 CFR § 61.195 pertaining to the providing of instrument instruction. You have raised your disagreement with information contained in the FAA web site maintained by flight Standards (specifically, AFS-840) where answers are provided to frequently asked questions (FAQs). We apologize for the delay in providing this response to you and appreciate your patience.

Your related question deals with the qualifications to provide instrument training corresponding to the category and class of the aircraft. As you point out, § 61.195(b) provides, “A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold: (1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and (2) if appropriate, a type rating.” You have indicated that some persons hold the belief that the possession of a CFI-IA authorizes the holder to provide instrument training without regard to the class rating held, a belief you do not share.

In construing § 61.195(b), we must rely on the plain language since it appears to be unambiguous and we are not aware of any agency-condoned practices that deviate. Section 61.195(b) refers specifically to category and class, as you have pointed out. The category of aircraft is airplane, but the class can consist of, for example, single engine, multiengine, land, and water (sea), as defined in 14 CFR 1.1. As provided in 61.195(b), to provide flight training, the instructor must bold both a pilot certificate and a flight instructor certificate with the category and class rating applicable to the training being provided. For example, an instructor must hold a pilot certificate and an instructor certificate, each with an airplane multiengine instrument rating, to give instrument training in a twin airplane (empgasis added). We do not construe Q&A-249 as indicating any other position.

I trust that this response satisfactorily answers your question. Should you need any further clarification, please contact Stephen Brice in this office at 718 553-3268.

Sincerely,

Loretta E. Alkalay

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

Plot thickens

 

[midlifeflyer]

It doesn't say that only the pilot certificate has to be appropriate to the cat/class. It says both must be.

John Lynch changed his mind on what is said in the 61 FAQ. Here's an interpretation on the subject:

Go take a look at the date on Jedi's post and the rest of the information passed along. As you know from previous dicussions on the subject, I agree with you (and the Eastern Region counsel) completely about what it says, but sometimes even correct legal interpretations bow to policy considerations.

 

[JediNein]

The surprise for me was the requirement for the 5 hours PIC in make/model. I didn't think an IPC was "for issuance of a certificate or rating" but then, even I can have my opinion "changed."

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[Dr Pokenhiemer]

Regardless of what the reg's say, would you WANT to be in the position (IFR) when something goes wrong and you don't have an MEI? I'm not talking about paperwork that may or may not follow an incident or accident. I'm talking about IFR engine failure with a student? He may be capable of handling the situation, but, as CFI's, we tend to be control freaks. I had an engine failure IFR the very first time I took my wife on a cross-country flt. Oil line ruptured on the right engine of a piper Seneca. I had about 150 hours in twins at the time, but it was all with another pilot. This was my first trip without another pilot with me too. My wife got back in the plane after we got it fixed, but I had to talk to her all the way down the ILS and assure her everything was alright. If you have a stack of FLYING magazines lying around, check out OCT 2002. My story's in there.

 

[Ralgha]

Regardless of what the reg's say, would you WANT to be in the position (IFR) when something goes wrong and you don't have an MEI? I'm not talking about paperwork that may or may not follow an incident or accident. I'm talking about IFR engine failure with a student? He may be capable of handling the situation, but, as CFI's, we tend to be control freaks. I had an engine failure IFR the very first time I took my wife on a cross-country flt. Oil line ruptured on the right engine of a piper Seneca. I had about 150 hours in twins at the time, but it was all with another pilot. This was my first trip without another pilot with me too. My wife got back in the plane after we got it fixed, but I had to talk to her all the way down the ILS and assure her everything was alright. If you have a stack of FLYING magazines lying around, check out OCT 2002. My story's in there.

Excellent point. Actually the regs are quite clear that you can not give flight instruction in an airplane without the proper category and class ratings on the CFI certificate, regardless of it being instrument instruction or not. Trying to twist it to get around that requirement is a popular past time for people.

 

[nosehair]

Just for the fun of it, let me throw this bug in the works.

If the instruction is not for a certificate or rating, or other required instruction, and the person recieving the instruction is legally and actually capable of being the PIC, the instructor does not need any kind of certificate.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Why is that a bug?

 

[nosehair]

From the horse's mouth....

QUESTION: A person holds a Flight Instructor Certificate-Instrument Airplane and wants to give instrument flight training on avionics in a turbojet type rated airplane (for example in a Cessna 500). The person receiving the instrument training is type rated and qualified as a PIC in the Cessna 500. The training that the flight instructor will be giving is not for the purpose of furtherance of a pilot certificate or rating. The training is merely for educational/informative purposes. The instrument flight training will be on: Air Traffic Control Clearances and Procedures - Holding Procedures; Navigation Systems - Intercepting and Tracking Navigational Systems and DMC ARCs; and Emergency Operations - Loss of Communications and Loss of Gyro Attitude and/or Heading Indicators.

What are flight instructor certificate and ratings, pilot certificate and ratings, and qualifications the person must have to be in compliance with § 61.195(b) and (c)? What flight instructor and pilot certificates and ratings must be held? Must the instructor hold a CE 500 type rating? Does the flight instructor have to have logged 5 hours of PIC flight experience in the Cessna 500?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.195(b), (c), (e), and (f); The person must hold at least the following:

Flight Instructor Certificate
Instrument-Airplane
&
Commercial Pilot Certificate
Instrument-Airplane
Airplane Multiengine Land
CE-500

or

ATP Certificate
Airplane Multiengine Land
CE-500

The flight instructor would only have to have logged 5 hours PIC flight time in a Cessna 500 if the training was for the furtherance of a certificate or rating. Since you specifically stated in your question that the training was not for the furtherance of a certificate or rating but was for merely for educational/informative purposes, then the answer is no, the flight instructor would not need to have logged 5 hours PIC flight time in a Cessna 500.

The flight instructor must hold a CE 500 type rating on his/her pilot certificate.
{Q&A 641}

...in this case, since the training is only for educational/information purposes, the instructor does not have to hold any kind of certificate.
The above answer is what is required, * if he/she wants to **log** it*.

 

[redshirt]

Just for the fun of it, let me throw this bug in the works.

If the instruction is not for a certificate or rating, or other required instruction, and the person recieving the instruction is legally and actually capable of being the PIC, the instructor does not need any kind of certificate.

If the instructor does not have "any kind of certificate", how is that person an instructor and not just a noisy passenger? You can't log instruction time for either the student or the instructor unless the instructor is instructor rated in category and class, right? After that, the only qualifier is if it is for "a certificate or rating", in which case you would need the 5 hour make and model for a multi-engine. Am I missing something?

 

[JediNein]

Actually the regs are quite clear ...

That's what the Inspector thought, too. No, the regs are not quite clear. That's why there is a part 61 FAQ Document that's bigger than part 61. The part 61 FAQ is #7 on the list of FAA Regulations and Policies above Advisory Circulars and well below Public Law. Inspectors are supposed to know this. Instructors need to get familiar with it, too. Further, a FAQ exists for part 141.

One has to be really durn careful to not take away privileges of the Instrument Instructor nor add privileges to the Multiengine Instructor. An CFI-Multi can not conduct "instrument instruction" without the "Instrument Airplane" category rating. There was a proposed change in the regulation in 1997 that added multiengine instrument and single engine instrument ratings to the instructor certificate. It didn't happen.


An "Instrument Airplane" (only) Instructor can conduct training and endorsements for all of the tasks in the IFR PTS including IPCs to a non-certified pilot in any airplane category aircraft for which the instructor holds the appropriate pilot certificate. The instructor must have five hours of PIC time in make and model in the case of a multiengine airplane.


If you do get a call about your following policy, force the inspector to put the exact charges in writing, an LOI. If you correct the Inspector, there will be another charge, and the Inspector will not stop digging until he/she finds something that will stick. I wasted two months going 12 rounds with the fellow instead of forcing an LOI and taking it to Legal.


All of us are only one ticked Inspector away from being a ground-pounder.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[Ralgha]

§ 61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.

(b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:

(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and

(2) If appropriate, a type rating.

(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.

(b) says "A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:". Pretty cut and dry to me.

(c) says "an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft". Pretty clear that you need the instrument rating that is appropriate to category and class on both certificates.

Before someone pulls out the argument that (b) is only referring to training for a rating, it's not. (b) is referring to aircraft ratings required to give instruction. (c) has specific verbage limiting its applicability to instruction for instrument ratings, (b) has no such verbage.

Typically the next argument is that the instrument rating on the CFI certificate is not category/class specific.

Here's an excerpt from a pilot certificate:

COMMERCIAL PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE & MULTIENGINE LAND; INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE

Here's one from a CFI certificate:

FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR
AIRPLANE SINGLE AND MULTIENGINE; INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE

The only difference between the two is that the CFI is not restricted to land. So, since the instrument rating is not specific to a category/class, if a CFI with single-engine and instrument ratings can give instrument instruction in a twin, it follows that if I hold a pilot certificate with single-engine and instrument ratings, I could fly a twin as long as I never looked out the windows.

 

[JediNein]

One more and I'm done.

I don't make the rules, I follow them. I comment on them when they become proposed rules. But, it's not my hand that publishes them in the Federal Register.

The current tide at the FAA sez what I put in my first post. That document has changed multiple times as the FAA's policy has changed.

Follow or not at your own peril.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[nosehair]

If the instructor does not have "any kind of certificate", how is that person an instructor and not just a noisy passenger? You can't log instruction time for either the student or the instructor unless the instructor is instructor rated in category and class, right? After that, the only qualifier is if it is for "a certificate or rating", in which case you would need the 5 hour make and model for a multi-engine. Am I missing something?

No, Red, you're not "missing somthing". As I stated in my "off-the-wall" post, there would be no logging of time in this case. The example was someone who was only teaching the use of these new-fangled electronic displays, or some such training that was not required for a certificate ot rating or other, such as a flight review, or anything that has to be logged. Just training for furthur education and experience. Then it doesn't matter what you certificates say, the instructee is PIC, and yeah, you're just a noisy passenger.