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CFII renewal for Military IP?

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AlbieF15

F15 Ret/FDX/InterviewPrep
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
1,764
Does anyone know an examiner or FSDO rep that might be able to renew my CFII?

I am current/qualified F15 IP that has trained several F15 students during the last 2 years...including initial solo and prep for their instrument qual checkride.

Any of you military/civilian types have a recommendation? Any FAA types scanning the boards able to help me out? I'd like to skip the weekend seminar and/or computer course if I can...I've got until end of March and I've got a full plate until then.

Thanks in advance! :)

Albie
 
Hey Albie, good to see ya again. Here's what I recommend. If you can produce a logbook showing that you've signed off some folks for solo and also have given instruction to others, then you should be okay. I would recommend going into the FSDO (first you need to make an appointment post 9/11), and tell them what your intent is and advise them that you will bring in the documentation. You may want to specifically ask them how many students that you need to have "soloed" to get a recharge on your ticket though. I believe the number might be 10. I have friends that had their CFI's renewed since they were Part 121 Captains and it was part of their "job" to teach F/O's on the line. I don't believe that you'll have too much trouble, BUT I would make sure well in advance in case you have to go to a back up and sign up with one of those computer courses.

Best of luck.
 
Is there any "military equivalency" program for getting a CFI/CFII if you're a military instructor but don't have the FAA rating?
 
Mud Eagle,
There's no equivalency from AF IP to CFI, you have to take both written tests and a checkride. That being said, they're all a piece of cake -- I got the Gleim CD rom to study for both tests, then took about 5 rides in a C172 to prep for the checkride -- I was waaay operprepped for both. Since you've been through IPUG, your instructional skills are well above what is expected, you just have to spend a few hours learning the "correct" way to do a chanelle, lazy-8, etc in a bug smasher.

Zulu
 
"Since you've been through IPUG, your instructional skills are well above what is expected"

Well, *I* haven't been through IPUG *yet*, but that'll hopefully be going on within the next year or two...

I'm just expecting to have to head over to the FTU or back to a UPT base on my next tour and I woudn't mind picking up a CFI while I'm at it.
 
Albie,
This is straight from 61.197:
(2) Presenting to an authorized FAA Flight Standards Inspector --

(i) A record of training students showing that, during the preceding 24 calendar months, the flight instructor has endorsed at least five students for a practical test for a certificate or rating and at least 80 percent of those students passed that test on the first attempt;

(ii) A record showing that, within the preceding 24 calendar months, the flight instructor has served as a company check pilot, chief flight instructor, company check airman, or flight instructor in a part 121 or part 135 operation, or in a position involving the regular evaluation of pilots; or

Looks to me like under para ii that if you've been a SEFE then the "evaluation" part is a slam dunk -- otherwise I'd do like Blasted said and call the FSDO -- common sense says they should count what you do on a daily basis, but you never know.

If you do have to do one of the computer courses, it's not painful. I just did one, and it took about 5 hours total.

Z
 
Success...perhaps...

Gentleman at Birmingham FSDO says bring my logbooks and someone in operations will review and likely re-issue the certificate. I have done plenty of instruction and have names and dates in logbook (another reason...Mud Eagle....to keep that civilian log updated!)

FYI...2 other FSDO reps said "no mil equivelency", but I followed BlueDev8tor's advice to keep asking until I found an office that seemed incline to cooperate. There may be a lesson here.

Anyway....pressing to test next Tuesday. I'll let everyone know what happens.

Albie.
 
That is not the intent....

I suggest you visit the following link:

http://afs600.faa.gov/search.asp?myFolder=640OtherFAQ&Query=&sub=640&lev=Sem&lev2=DPE&title=FAQ

You should get the FAQ anyway, but for our lazier friends, here's the part you want:

QUESTION: Here's a question related to the (in)famous phrase in 61.197(2)(ii), “or in a position involving the
regular evaluation of pilots.”
A CFI, happens to be in the military, is an instructor pilot in his unit and regularly evaluates those pilots. He's
requesting that we renew his CFI based on his military activity since he does very little civil instructing. He argues
the point that he can use his military comp check in lieu of a BFR, so why can't he use his military instruction
experience to renew his CFI?.
Should we renew him or not based on his military experience of being in a position involving the regular evaluation
of pilots?
ANSWER: Ref. §61.197(a)(2)(ii); No you would not renew this military IP’s FAA flight instructor
certificate without some semblance of the training involving the knowledge, skills, and abilities of the certification
standards set forth in Parts 61 or 141.
The intent of “. . . or in a position involving the regular evaluation of pilots . . .” of §61.197(a)(2)(ii) involved
training in the environment of the requirements and standards of Part 61. The rule was never intended to permit a
military IP who flight instructs another military aviator on how to fire a heating seeking missile or evaluating
military aviators on military mission operations to equate to training pilots via Part 61 standards.
However, there are situations where the military IP’s duties and responsibilities may equate to training in the
environment of the requirements and standards of Part 61. For example, if an FAA Aviation Safety Inspector has
“first-hand, direct knowledge of a military IP's instructing duties and responsibilities and the military IP's duties and
responsibilities involve teaching military pilots on instrument ratings, qualifications, and skills in the ATC
environment and further this FAA inspector orally tests the military IP on Part 61 standards then there would be a
case for arguing for the military IP’s position. Another example could be when an FAA Aviation Safety Inspector
has “first-hand, direct knowledge of a military IP's instructing duties and responsibilities and the military IP's duties
and responsibilities involve teaching military aviators on basic piloting skills that equate to private pilot training
under Part 61. Again, if the FAA inspector orally tests the military IP on Part 61 standards, then there would be a
case for arguing for the military IP’s position.

So, probably no to renewing just because you are a military IP. And calling around until you find someone willing to do it because they misunderstand the intent, is in my opinion, wrong. You, sir, as a military officer, should be ashamed if you use that technique to gain your objective, IMHO. Just take an FIRC. Heck, you can do it online, and actually brush up on your Part 61, 91 etc knowledge. You can even mail it all in! (Read the FAQ on how to do that.)

https://www.gleim.com/Aviation/firc/

You can also get the new Far / AIM for $4 with the course among other book specials. The course is only $99. They will even give you the first lesson for free to try it.

Do the right thing.

:mad:
 
RCB,

Not every E-3 Nav is a geek, but it is a safe bet that you probably are.

Teaching students the ins and outs of flying the F15 for the first time involves almost all the same skills that a CFI routinely uses. The instrument and navigation work dovetails nicely with the work I used to do as a CFII. What I'm looking for is an examiner who is aware of the type of training we do in an FTU. I'm not cheating the system or compromising my integrity.

Go back to the aero club where you can feel like a big shot.

Albie
 
RCB:

While the part about "how to fire a heating seeking missile or evaluating military aviators on military mission operations" is valid, that's *not* all a military instructor or flight examiner does.

Annually we, as military pilots (fighter or otherwise), take an instrument checkride *in addition* to our mission qualification checkride (which would fall under the quote you highlighted).

If you look at the standards for that instrument checkride, you'd see that it exceeds the standards you would have to meet on a FAA commercial/instrument checkride. There is no tactical employment or weapon system usage -- it is purely basic instument flying and operations within the US airspace system, to include a ground evaluation.

Every initially-upgrading student like Albie teaches takes one of these on about the 6th or 7th flight in the course. Every flight leading up to that is instruction in those basic part 61-type areas.

What Albie does for a living far exceeds the knowledge and practical experience of the average line CFII. Him shopping around the FSDOs to find an examiner who is familiar enough with what he does to sign off his currency neither violates the spirit and intent or letter of the law for the FAR in question.

It surprises me that someone who used to wear a green bag and ride around in the tube of pain with guys wearing radiator-grille wings doesn't understand that.

Then again, maybe it's different over there in the AWACS.
 

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