CFII Logbook Questions

[Flightist]

Hi Folks!

I just got my first job flight instructing and I'm doing primary and instrument students. I don't want to appear totally stupid at my new job so I'll ask you experienced CFI types what you do concerning logbook entries. In my logbook, for instructing primary students I've been writing in under the remarks and endorsements line just what I put on their logbook and in the "and class" section I write their name and whether it's primary, commercial or instrument instruction.

For both primary and instrument students I have not recorded landings if they have their hands on the controls. So I only record the number of landings that I demonstrate. Is this right?

For instrument students I record all the same information in the remarks section (approach description, etc.) but I record no number of instrument appoaches. I assume this is proper seeing how they're the ones flying the approach. I do record the time in IMC (actual instrument condition) but no time for simulated instrument conditions. I hope that's right. One last question, If part of the approach is in IMC I'm assuming I can then record that approach under the number of approaches box in my logbook.

Any one clue me in on what they do for these logbook entries including any other possibilities I've missed here.

Thanks very much!

 

[Timebuilder]

In the last column of MY logbook I put the student's first initial and last name, and what we did during the lesson, and perhaps a "nice job" note.

For primary students learning landings, you both are logging PIC, and you are the responsible party, so log the landings.

For IMC, you are PIC, and you log the time. I log those approaches from IMC too, although the chief counsel opinion says to fly to minimums. Most instrument approaches don't break out down at minimum altitude, and so my logbook will appear much like other instructor logbooks, even though we could all be technically incorrect. Approaches in VFR with the student under the hood never get logged by the instructor. I do, of course, note the approaches in that last column.

Avbug will no doubt clean this up a little, but that's how I did it. I based this on what my instructors had done when I was learning.

 

[ShawnC]

Both logging PIC? You mean I have about 50 more hours of PIC then I thought?

I've heard similait interpetration once but it was that if you are types, current, and rated for the class and catorgory of the aircraft, you can log PIC for the time that you are the only one with your hands on the controls, while at the same time you are logging dual recieved.

Does that mean now all my intial power and glider training is PIC also?

 

[Timebuilder]

I can't research this question this morning, since I'm not a home where my usual resources are located, but I'd review the part 91 specs for PIC, and go over the regs for students and instructors. We had a similar discussion involving the logging of complex time, and whether or not a complex endorsement was required in order to log that time. My pre-private flying includes a lot of PIC time.

Avbug may beat me to it, but I'll try to get back to you on this in the next 24hrs.

 

[puddlejumper]

Student is PIC only when Sole Occupant

For primary students learning landings, you both are logging PIC, and you are the responsible party, so log the landings.

"Student Pilots" aren't rated in the aircraft, so they can't log PIC while receiving instruction. Now, if the "student" is a rated, licensed pilot, he/she could log all time as sole manipulator as long as the aircraft does not require a type-rating and the student is not an ATP. (The sole manipulator reg only allows for rec, private and commercial pilots to log the time, as it reads to me. That is goofy, I know)

This reg allows for appropriately rated students to LOG as PIC flight time while training to ACT as PIC. ie: Pvt pilot logging PIC in a complex, high performance, high altitude or taildragger aircraft without the endorsement. Another example may be a pilot out of currency, flying with an instructor to get the BFR. I would have the out-of-BFR pilot log PIC for the entire review, even if the medical is out of date, they just can't ACT as PIC.

For IMC, you are PIC, and you log the time.

The appropriately rated pilot (in aircraft category, class and type if applicable) should log IMC and PIC as sole manipulator while controlling the aircraft by reference to flight instruments in actual conditions regardless of whether or not he or she has an instrument rating on their certificate.

I don't think a CFI should be logging landings that the student has performed. That would be like a PIC, PNF logging the landings of the PF SIC. I don't think that would be right. Hopefully I'm understanding the regs correctly and my interpretation here is clear. AvBug will certainly be following up on this popular topic soon.

-PJ

 

[bobbysamd]

Logging time

I worked primarily in 141 schools. What I did in my logbook was to write in the "remarks" column my student's first and last name, the lesson number and unit, and the maneuvers and procedures covered. I became very good at writing small, and having a Cross Fine Point helped! I used the same squiggly, circle and square shorthand my instructor used to note the ground reference maneuvers. The reason I kept such minute detail was for myself to serve as a record of the training I gave to the student, and for the student in case something happened to his/her flight records and I had to recontruct his/her logbook.

I learned from an old Riddle hand to be very careful about using exact FAA nomenclature to describe the maneuvers, in the student's logbook and my logbook. I gathered that unless I did the student wouldn't get credit for receiving training in the maneuvers. I doubted that would happened, but it made sense in a way.

I counted all landings I made but no landings my student made. I knew that I would always get in enough landings to maintain currency. I believe you're right about how you're logging landings.

I always counted all approaches I flew in actual as long as they begun in actual. Think about it. It's common sense. An approach is a letdown procedure from IMC to visual conditions. It made no sense to me not to count an approach if I began in IMC and broke out, for example at 800 AGL. If my student flew the approach I counted it as an approach for him/her and just noted it in my logbook.

You cannot count as PIC time you logged before you were rated in category and class. It is dual, and solo if you were sole occupant of the aircraft. This will probably start a debate. After you are rated, it counts as PIC for you as sole manipulator if you are receiving instruction. It is PIC and dual given for the instructor.

Hope that helps a little.

 

[puddlejumper]

Student Pilot Logging PIC

You cannot count as PIC time you logged before you were rated in category and class. It is dual, and solo if you were sole occupant of the aircraft. This will probably start a debate. After you are rated, it counts as PIC for you as sole manipulator if you are receiving instruction.

I think back in 1997 or maybe '94, the regs were changed a little to allow student pilots to log PIC.

FAR 61.51(e)(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot --

(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;

(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under § 61.87 of this part; and

(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.

-PJ

 

[Timebuilder]

I thought so. Paragraph (iii) is the one my instructor showed me.

 

[bobbysamd]

14 CFR 61.54(e)(4)

That is a big change, made in 1998 according to the source line. Thanks.

 

[Mickey]

If the student is flying solo then they can log it as PIC. If they are receiving dual they don't log any PIC. It's only dual received and TT, SE, etc.

 

[Timebuilder]

According to the above quoted reg, you can log PIC while receiving training. As a flight instructor, you can log PIC. Ergo, two PIC logging people.

 

[avbug]

There are several cases under which two pilots may log pilot-in-command time at the same time, but there are never any circumstances under which two pilots may act as pilot-in-command at the same time, in the same aircraft.

A student pilot may log pilot in command time when solo, but may not log pilot in command time when flying with an instructor.

A student who is rated in the airplane, having at least a recreational pilot certificate or higher, may log pilot in command while receiving instruction, if qualified to act as pilot in command and acting as sole manipulator of the controls.

A flight instructor may not log a student's landings for currency, nor may a flight instructor log a student's instrument approaches for currency.

 

[puddlejumper]

A student who is rated in the airplane, having at least a recreational pilot certificate or higher, may log pilot in command while receiving instruction, if qualified to act as pilot in command and acting as sole manipulator of the controls.

I'm not sure if I'm reading your wording right on this one AvBug. You say that in order for a student pilot to LOG PIC he must be "qualified to act" as PIC? This seems contrary to earlier discussions and the legal interpretations. I thought the endorsements were required to be qualified to ACT as PIC but not to LOG PIC.

I thought we were all getting somewhere there for a while, and agreed that if a pilot has the appropriate category/class ratings he or she could log PIC while sole manipulator while not necessarily having the endorsements to be legal as acting PIC.

One other thing, the student pilot logging PIC:

FAR 61.51(e)(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot --
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under § 61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.

Is (i) along with (ii) and (iii) required for a student to log PIC or is it (i) or (ii) and (iii)? What exactly does the ( semi-colon mean? I've never heard of a student pilot logging dual as PIC before.

-PJ

 

[Timebuilder]

If the student is the sole occupant as in (i), then how can he be undergoing flight training (iii) without the instructor?

 

[puddlejumper]

Solo flights are training

Those solo flights are actually supposed to be part of a training program, don't you think? Under 141 they are part of the sillybus and everything.

I've just never heard of anyone logging dual as PIC for a student pilot before...

By the way avbug, I didn't mean to wink at you, I was trying to put a ; in parenthesis'

-PJ

 

[Timebuilder]

Doc's FAR page also underscores the SOLO part of the student PIC logging.

Although the student may be there as a part of a training program, albeit loosely speaking when talking aboout part 61, it still seems funny that the student is "undergoing training" without his instructor.

Uncle.

I did a little research in my old logbook, and it's true. The only PIC time I had was when I was a solo pilot. Must be that CRS again! In fact, it has been a long time since I had a true primary student. My record shows that my pre-solo students did not have PIC time indicated by me, except for solo. It must be time for bed....

 

[bobbysamd]

Logging time

Avbug has it right on each point, based on my historic understanding of the regs and new understanding of the regs change on a student pilot logging PIC while flying solo in the airplane.

By the way, did anyone see in a recent AOPA pub that it is lobbying the FAA to change the high-performance signoff reg so that total horsepower exceeds 200 instead of "an" engine having 200 hp? Good news for Seminole, Duchess, etc. drivers.