CFI Union

[Westwindflyer]

If just about all pilots are union why dont they have a union for CFI's. Is it even a possibility, how would it work.

 

[Goose Egg]

While I'm sure that unions have their purposes, my first thought about the question of whether CFIs should have unions is "Freak no! Are you trying to kill General Aviation?!" When I am a rich, jaded airline pilot, I'll pay my union dues just like everyone else. But for now, I'm too young for their chicanery. And I'm too young to succomb to greed and bitterness, as many of the members of this forum have.

 

[lrn2fly]

At minimum most flight schools should at least stop breaking labor laws.

 

[Goose Egg]

...simply from a humanity standpoint, there are some places that need to up the ante a little.

Completely agree. I mean face it, CFI is an entry-level job, and no one is going to be making buckets full of cash. But you've got to be able to eat and pay rent.

Goose

 

[FSB99]

a union's first and foremost duty is to represent their constituents for the purpose of securing a collective bargaining agreement, and once one is established, enforcing that agreement. does any flight instructor really want to get into a contract with your employer? i know your employer wouldn't want to sign a contract with their instructors, unless it provided that you pay them to work there, or something like that, or that you can't leave on your own, but they can fire you on a whim.
trust me, you don't want the politics that are inevitable with unions, either, when you're flight instructing. not for what money you make. just not worth it.

 

[Flyingtoohigh]

There is too much turn over in the CFI world to ever make this happen. Instructors teach between one and three years and move on. There are too many young instructors living with their parents and thus no expenses as well as retired folk who instruct to fill their days. Flight instructing will likely never be a destination in life for the vast majority of instructors past, present, and future.

 

[iahawkeye]

I think a CFI Union is a great idea. In fact, I am so inspired I think that I will head up this whole operation. If all of you flight instructors out there could start sending me 2% of your paycheck, I will be more than happy to be your union leader.

 

[NuGuy]

Hey,

Doesn't the DAB campus of ERAU have unionized instructors? I hear they do pretty well for themselves.

Nu

 

[troy]

A union would be a bad idea. It would not only drive up the cost of flight instruction, it would probably bankrupt many FBO's and flight schools. There would be very few places to learn to fly. Bad idea.

 

[Westwindflyer]

Lrn2fly is right lots of flight schools do break labor laws, and of course we put up with it because we dont have much choice.

 

[merikeyegro]

ERAU-DB does have a union. However, we're a little different here. Basically, our contract gives us a guaranteed pay and benefits on par with the faculty. Really, it just brought us from sub-human to equal with the faculty. The old CFIs figured that we were doing very similar work to the faculty but were getting about 1/5 the pay. So, they got on the horn with the IAMAW and got a union certified. It's not a panacea, but it's pretty good. Average compensation is about $15/hour + medical, retirement, dental, and tuition credit. It works out great. It's does come with a price, however. We pay about $31/month for it. It's worth it, in my opinion.

This won't work everywhere, however. ERAU is a $200M/year enterprise with income outside of flying. The company employs a few thousand people and can spread its costs out over a larger scale. A small flight school would likely go out of business.

Our situation is how I think companies and unions should work together. Our union is relatively weak as compared to ALPA, which can work in our favor. The company has the flexibility to make decisions without being hamstrung by a contrat. The union has a defined set of benefits that are not out of line with management, as well as guaranteed pay. Most unions get a little nuts and get too much power. That is not good for the company. Some companies are too strong. That isn't good, either. Ours is a moderate position. I like it that way.

As far as breaking labor laws goes, I think that better gov't enforcement would help here. Unions will just make this situation worse. There's only so much a union can do for an unscrupulous company.

It has worked in ERAU's favor, for the most part, however. They've increased their retention rate for IPs as other jobs are not as palatable (average yearly income is around $26,000 in DB, which equates to about $45,000 in NYC) for such piddly salaries. Many have decided to get master degrees, which increases the quality of the employee. ERAU has this benefit at its disposal. Other places might not. The downside is that ERAU's labor budget has increased. Per hour flown, ERAU pays $22 in labor costs. ERAU can afford it, but ABC Aviation might not be able to. I guess it just depends on where you are. If you work for a big company like UND, Webster, or maybe even DCA, it would work in your favor (and likely that of the company). Higher-paid employees tend to produce up to their perceived worth, so productivity usually goes up (ours has).

However, the CFIs have to be willing to work for the union in leadership positions and as recruiters. Here in Florida, we have to convince people to join the union - Florida is a right-to-work (for less) state. They get the bennies of the contract even if they aren't members. Be careful of this part.

If you do a good analysis of it, it might work in your favor. If your company has a decent group of people that are not just in it for flight time and may have a little time to sit as a CFI (like now), a CFI union is a good idea. If you have a group that has no interest in making the company a better place to work, then a union is pointless. I guess it all depends on your intent.

Have fun. If you want to see a copy of our contract to get an idea of what rights we have here, go to www.local501-cfia.org and click on "contracts" and then "new contract." That'll give you our 2002-6 contract. It's pretty good, but could use a little work. Take care, y'all...

 

[inthegoo]

No, Great idea!

A union would be a bad idea. It would not only drive up the cost of flight instruction, it would probably bankrupt many FBO's and flight schools. There would be very few places to learn to fly. Bad idea.

No, Great Idea!

Less pilots in the world then to whore themselves out and take food off my family's table!

 

[NuGuy]

ERAU-DB does have a union. However, we're a little different here. However, the CFIs have to be willing to work for the union in leadership positions and as recruiters. Here in Florida, we have to convince people to join the union - Florida is a right-to-work (for less) state.

Hiya Mer,

Are you guys under the RLA or the NLRB? It doesn't matter if Florida is a right to work state or not, if you got a "agency shop" rule in your contract, then the deadbeats would still have to pay a "contract administration fee" even if they don't join.

Hehe, still, that must frost some of the proffs from ERAU. When I went there, they were really gung ho pro management as far as labor relations classes. Guess they don't have to look too far for a case study now, huh?

Anyway, good on you guys for taking charge of the situation.

Nu

 

[cynic]

That would be SUPER!

Unions ROCK!

Without unions pilots at express jet would be working for less than $17,500 a year right? I mean without that union they might make what??? Say $17,000 a year?

And look what they did for Mesa!

 

[merikeyegro]

And where would you be without the union? Just curious. Keep in mind that YOU ARE PART OF THE UNION. It is not an obscure entity. You pay dues. You vote. You basically run the joint...unless you choose not to. It's up to you.

As far as ERAU, we are under NLRB. We are not a transportation business, so we don't get RLA regs. There's also nothing in our contract that stipulates an "administration fee." I'm not sure what that even is, actually...

The profs here have even toyed with a union, although it doesn't have full support yet. Many here are rumbling about it, though. It's a matter of time, really. They're not very pro-management. I'd say it's about 50-50.

Anyway, if you have any other questions or want some help organizing, let me know. I'll try to help you out. Unions are what you make of them. If you're convinced they suck, then your union will suck. If you try to make it a cooperative effort and attempt to work with the management, it can work out quite nicely for you. It's all how to treat the situation.

Just my $.02...

 

[NuGuy]

Hiya MRE,

Maybe you misunderstood me...I support you guys %100. CFIs have had crap wages for way before any of us were on the scene, and I am tickled to death that someone stood up and said "whoa".

I was on campus back in 91...its a ways behind me.

Anyway, you have a couple of different terms....a "closed" shop is one where you MUST belong to the union. You see this a lot in the construction trade where you belong to the union, goto the union hiring hall, and they send you out on jobs.

An open shop, which sounds like what you have, is you don't have to join if you don't want to, and ride on everyones coattails.

An agency shop basically says that if you work there, you either join or pay a contract admin fee, which works out to be the same as dues anyway, without all the other union benefits. Since the union did all the work getting the contract and work rules, if you don't want to join, you owe them for the effort, since you benefit from the contract.

Nu

 

[YaMama]

I think a union would actually be good for the long-term health of GA and aviation as a whole.

Let's say a union succeeded in adding $20 per hour to the average CFI's wages - over a 50 hour training program that comes to $1000. Not a huge amount, when you're already spending $7000 on flight training, and compare it to the cost of flying with an inexperienced instructor - who can unnecessarily add months and thousands of dollars to your training - and it starts to look like a pretty good deal. Besides, if you're a rich guy who's buying a brand new Cirrus the day after you get your PPL, wouldn't you rather fly with somebody with a solid reputation and experience who knows how to make flying safe for you and your family?

Higher-paid employees tend to produce up to their perceived worth, so productivity usually goes up (ours has).

That's an excellent point too. Another practice that could use some scrutiny is the tradition of only paying CFIs when they're billing clients. It's almost like management is thinking, "Flight instructors they're a bunch of lazy weasels who will find every excuse to cancel a flight unless we only pay them for flying." Well, if you treat people like that, guess what they become? On the other hand, if you treat them like professionals who will naturally choose to be as productive as possible, people tend to live up to that expectation as well.

Sorry for the rambling, I've been instructing for a few years now, wouldn't mind doing it a few more but with the pay and working conditions it pretty much sux.