CFI or C-550?

[Rfgrabb]

I am a brand new CFI. I have an opportunity to sit in the right seat of a corporation's Cessna Citation II (C-550). This opportunity may also include the ability to operate a Cessna 210 PIC and even a light twin. Some flight instruction on the side may also be possible. However, taking this job might mean giving up my spot in line as a flight instructor at a reputable 141 school.

My questions are as follows. First of all, is it even legal to log SIC time in a C-550 with a captain that has his single pilot waiver but not his ATP or MEI. There seems to be a little controversy surronding this issue. I have spoken with individuals at Flight Safety, Simuflight, and the local FSDO, and have met with mixed replies. Second, how would a regional look at the bulk of my time being SIC in a C-550?

 

[English]

Can you please clarify...how can a citation pilot typed with single pilot authorization NOT have an ATP? Are you sure about this?

 

[Wiggums]

To answer English's question, you don't need to be an ATP to be typed in a Citation II/SP.

For Rfgrabb. To begin with, how do you figure you can log the time as SIC? I'll bet this C-550 is being operated under either Part 91 or Part 135. If it's operated under Part 91, you can log the time only when you're solo manipulator of the controls. When the other pilot is flying you'll just be a passenger, since the aircraft is being operated single pilot. Now, if the aircraft is operated 135 the situation is worse. You can only log SIC time if your an approved SIC required by the company. So you'll need a 135 SIC checkout, plus, the operator has to require that two pilots be onboard the aircraft, even though it is being operated single pilot. So basically take a real good look at how you plan to log the time. Most interviewers are going to take a real close look at Citation time when the pilot has only 250 hours.

If the 141 school you're talking about teaching at is Flight Safety, I would say go that route. You'll get plenty of multi, and time logged as a MEI is very valuable.

 

[English]

Wiggums,

I just posted a response similar to this under another thread, but here goes...

I agree with you 100%, that one cannot log SIC time in the situation given unless the SIC is required in the regulations under which the flight is being operated (part 135 in this case), and the SIC is fully qualified under part 135. The regionals will frown on anyone with 300 hours logging Citation time as SIC time. Rfgrabb, you cannot qualify to act as an "SIC" (a term really used for 135 and 121 operations) with your flight time. You might consider logging it under total time to use it as a basis for discussion about how you are gaining experience in new aircraft and flight environments, but I wouldn't use it for proof of experience. If you try that, you are opening up all kinds of questions about the systems that you just won't be able to answer if you haven't gone throught he proper training for the aircraft.

As far as anyone logging PIC while being the sole manipulator of the controls, I wouldn't do it unless I was typed in the aircraft and was designated by my company as the PIC for that particular flight, whether part 91, 135 or 121.

My background, up until recently, was regional airline-oriented. It's very clear that the major airlines are only interested in PIC time that is accumulated by a "designated" PIC. But I'm finding that in the corporate world, PIC time logged by a typed flying pilot is acceptable. Since most of what is done in corporate flying is dictated by the insurance company, they accept the definition of "sole manipulator" time when determining PIC time.

 

[bobbysamd]

PIC v. SIC

EVERYONE that matters where you're heading, e.g. commuters, wants PIC time and PIC multi time. If you are raising questions in your mind if you can log the Citation SIC time legally, chances are others will, too. The 141 school sounds like a sure thing. I'd stay put.

I wouldn't place much stock in promises the place might make if it should say it will send you to FlightSafety or someplace for SIC training or to by typed eventually. There are more broken promises in aviation than you can shake a stick at.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[Wiggums]

As far as anyone logging PIC while being the sole manipulator of the controls, I wouldn't do it unless I was typed in the aircraft and was designated by my company as the PIC for that particular flight, whether part 91, 135 or 121.

My mistake. If it's an aircraft that requires a type rating then the original poster can't log the time even on 91 legs unless he gets typed. See 61.31a.

EDIT: I meant cannot log it as PIC, SIC is ok under 61.55.

 

[sydeseet]

This operation has to be 91 as you cannot operate a turbo-jet under 135 without an ATP. There are certain restrictions to a single-pilot waiver in a citation and he may not always choose to "operate" single pilot. As long as you satisfy the req.'s of a Part 91 SIC (61.55) which include some ground school and 3 TOL's, you can act as AND LOG SIC time IAW with the FAR's. Clarify with the captain as to whether or not he will agree to give you the proper training and then operate the aircraft as a 2 pilot operation, if not forget it. I'd ride along sometimes for the experience (and jets are fun) but wouldn't pass up the 141 school for it.

Another thing to consider is whether or not there is a possibility for an upgrade someday. Usually AIG (which is basically the judge, jury, and jailer of corporate aviation insurance) will not allow a jet captain with less than 3000TT and 500 in type (among other req.'s) without out a large increase in the premium. As an earlier post stated, insurance is to 91 what OP Spec.'s are to 121/135.

Whatever your decision, I'd have all my ducks lined up before I commited to anything. It's easy to be tempted as a lot-timer into something like this even though it may not be the best idea. I knew a guy that gave up a good CFI job to fly right-seat in a King Air 200 a company was buying. He burned the bridge with the flight school, pissed a bunch of people off, and didn't care because he was on his way to ME Turbine time. Then, they backed out of the King Air and bought a Pilatus. No twin time, no future, no past.....oops. Good luck.

 

[aceshigh]

You CAN log SIC

I've had experience with this exact situation. I worked with the operator of a Cessna CitationJet (CE525) while I was in college. As posted above, as long as you meet the requirements of 61.55, you can log SIC. The reg spells it out fairly clear. I also logged the time I flew before the checkout was complete. However, I did not log either PIC or SIC and the Captain was Single pilot certified and was not an MEI. I just logged it as part of my total time.

How did this hold up in an airline interview? Given the explanation above, not one interviewer has ever pressed the issue beyond the questions of how did you acquire this time? and what was the criteria you used for logging this time? Basically, if you leave the PIC and SIC column blank, I don't think it would matter that much as most pilots and recruiters know of the ways that we as pilots strive to get to our dream jobs. I also think they can tell if someone is being used to warm a seat (no flame intended).

So, If you want the jet, go for it. If you want to instruct, go for it. If you want to try and do both, really go for it. Whichever one you choose not to do, drop me a PM and let me know because I am out of my airline job right now.

Best of Luck,

Aceshigh

 

[FlyinBrian]

Ok, so if you're not the PIC, you're not the SIC, and you aren't recieving instruction... How are you logging it as total time? It seems to me that by this criterion, a totally unrated non-pilot can log total time while illegally flying an airplane. This time that you'd be logging is essentially the same as letting your buddy take the controls for awhile on a "lunch flight." Basically, assuming you can find a justification for legally logging the time, you are at the very least admitting to illegally flying a turbojet aircraft without a type rating.

 

[FlyinBrian]

Also, I just read 61.55, which would allow you to log SIC if you met the requirements, but you would need significant training that I'm not sure your company would go through the expense of providing if they can fly it with just one pilot.

 

[Rfgrabb]

sum-up

So, if I got this right, according to 61.55 you can serve as second-in-command of an aircraft that requires more than one crewmember if the following stipulations are met: appropriate certicates and ratings are held, and the 61.55 checkout is completed. So, if the C-550 requries two pilots the right seater could log SIC time even if the PIC does not hold an ATP or MEI. Still, my biggest question is what would a regional or major think of this time?

I have checked with Flight Safety and Simuflight and they have programs designed specifically for this 61.55 "checkout." While they are cheap in comparison to a type rating at around $8,000 compared to $14,000, assuming I can somehow get this corporation to pay for this school is SIC C-550 time valuable?

 

[FlyinBrian]

I think the short answer is:
Not as vaulable as PIC time, especially if it's in a multi.

Whether or not it is true, I would likely view the SIC time in your book as "held the yoke while the captain sipped his coffee" time. Not bad experience, but not the same being in command of your ship and your student, having to make decisions and save your butt.

 

[flydog]

Part 135 requires and ATP for operating a Turbojet aircraft so its obviously Part 91

That being the case if the PIC has single pilot authorization then an SIC is not a required crewmember and therefore the time cannot be logged.

If it was under 135 they would need authorization under their Op Specs of use of autopliot in lieu of SIC. If they dont an SIC is required. In that case the SIC needs a 135.297 and 61.55 check usually from SimuFlite or Flight Safety to sit in the right seat

Most pilots I have met that are typed in the Citation do not have single pilot authorization on their type and there are plenty of 135 and 91 operators flying with 2 crewmembers. At our company one of the Citation FOs has less than 300 hrs and he is a required crewmember under Part 135 and 91 since there is no single pilot authorization.

I disagree with the asessment that SIC time is meaningless. A few hundred hours in the right seat of a jet is great experience and will likely help you get in the door of a 135 Jet operator. However I do agree that most promises from flight departments arent worth the air they float on and if I had to choose between an occasional ride in a Citation and flight instructing job where I could log 1000 hrs a year I would stick with flight instructing.

 

[lancair1]

Rfgrabb,

The following links provide definitive answers to most questions regarding the logging of flight time. There are so many complexities and differences of opinion, I've found these references to save quite alot of time.

http://www.apocalypse.org/pub/u/amb/pic-time.txt

http://www.awp.faa.gov/fsdo/las_vegas/art_pilot.htm

http://www.propilot.com/doc/logging2.html

Good luck!

If you turn down the job or know of another, I would be grateful if you would let me know.

 

[RJones]

I know of no 135 operator who operates a CE500 series jet single pilot...the FAA won't let them.

 

[English]

RJones,

Could be, but there are plenty of operators that run CE525s single pilot part 135. I don't know about the 500 series.

 

[Buschpilot]

IMHO, I'd rather have the PIC time than the SIC jet time. I've met more people than I can count in the last nine months that are really not very happy, due to their lack of PIC time. They're getting laid off and can't find a good job because of it!

Now, on the other hand, if you can mix the time up, some SIC jet time is never a bad thing, and it could help down the road. You just don't want to be the guy who has 1500 hours of SIC time and 300 PIC. Plus, you may never upgrade with such low time. And who knows, maybe the jet only flies 30 hours a month.

 

[501261]

There was a thread about this on the Corporate Forum about a month ago. Let me clear this stuff up about the Citation, because there seems to be a lot of confusion about it.

1. A Citation II (C550) is a TWO pilot airplane. An approprialtly rated SIC (65.55 checkout) can log all the time he is on that airplane as SIC. He can log this time whether it be flown under 91, 135, or 121 (obviously needs 135, or 121 checkrides to fly it under 135, 121). Also there are no Citations being flown under 121 for those nitpicks, just used as an example

2. The fact that the PIC has a single pilot waiver, makes no difference, because a C550 is TYPE certified as TWO PILOTS. The PIC is simply not using his waiver.

3. You can not log PIC time in a Citation unless you have a type rating (CE500), this is not a King Air (type rating not required) and sole manipulator does not work!

4. A C501 or C551 Citation (Citation ISP or IISP) is different and this is what confuses most of the people on the board. Since the airplane TYPE certificate states two pilots OR 1 pilot.

5. You do not need to go to FS or Simuflite to get a 61.55 checkout, any PIC can give a 61.55 checkout. You just need to go out with no passengers and daytime and to the manuevers required by 61.55. The PIC does not need an ATP or MEI to give this "checkout", and you can log all of this time as SIC according to 61.55F.

6. There are some Citations out there (I personaly know of a C560, and a C525) being operated Single Pilot and 135. While this is not common, since the hurdles are large (insurance and an understanding FSDO), it is possible.

7. My copilots have had no problem getting hired on by the regionals with SIC jet time and little PIC time (2 Skywest, 1 Coex). MAJORs are the ones that want the PIC turbine time.

8. If you read the board long enough, when a thread like this comes up, most people will say that they're experience (college, 141 school, fractional, regional) is the best way to go. I disagree with all of them, I believe what YOU make out of it is the key here. Flying as an SIC is what you make out of it. You CAN learn a whole lot by constantly flying with EFIS, TCAS, EGPWS, INS's, SID's, STAR's, shooting real approaches to airports you have never been to, basically just getting to know how the system works. However, if all you get out of it is learning how to put coffee and ice on the airplane, that 1000 hours SIC time is as worthless as the 1000 hour PIC that has never left the local training environment.

Congradulations on the offers and good luck!