Ce 208 POW's in Columbia ?

[jsoceanlord]

Several weeks ago I saw a TV news show about the Ce 208 crew that went down in Columbia while on a governent contract.

they're being held hostage. I haven't heard any more since. anyone know the outcome ?

 

[avbug]

It's Colombia, not Columbia.

There was more than one 208 downed. Teams have been operating in the area for several months.

POW's implies that they are in fact prisoners of war. They are not. They are kidnap victims following a shoot down and execution of some of the crew. The difference is a formality, but still an important distinction.

 

[FL240]

Dont ask questions on this board

Maybe its just me but it doesnt seem that you answered the only question he asked!!? Just making sure that his spelling and definitions are in check huh? Thats the kinda stuff that drives me nuts on this board. Give it a rest already.

 

[avbug]

I answered his question exactly. Read it again.

It's being dealt with, and that's all that needs to be said.

For the safety of those involved, it's precisely none of your business.

 

[starvingcfi]

anybody wanna see who can pee farther? that'll settle this $hit.

 

[avbug]

???

 

[peepsmover]

Exclusive

I think the family members of the downed 208 crew would disagree. There is nothing secret about what they are doing, just check out the State Department's website or testimony to Congress on counter drug ops. This is precisely why the USG wants to use contractors, less problems if a contractor dies versus an actual US agent/mil.

The 60 minutes story illuminated the less than agressive effort being made to secure the contractor's freedom, (over a year already, right?) hopefully things will improve. I think increasing the amount of the contract to allow for a contractor to conduct their ops in a twin-engine turbo prop would be an important remedy, being silent about their case does not help, publicizing it puts pressure on our govt to get off their haunches and seriously address the matter, placing pithy rewards for capturing their captors does not solve the problem, this is Colombia not some kidnapping case in Iowa. Both rebels and paramilitaries/Colombian military deal drugs, remember the Colombian C-130 in Florida? This is a very dangerous place for unsuspecting contractors, telling their story puts people on notice and keeps the prisoners alive.

 

[bart]

If somebody goes to Colombia and doesn't know they have a good chance of coming back in a box if at all, they are incredibly naive. It has been that way for at least 20 years. Peru and Bolivia are the same way, just not as bad.

 

[avbug]

over a year already, right?

No, wrong.

...the less than agressive effort being made to secure the contractor's freedom,

Uninformed, inaccurate, wrong.

This is precisely why the USG wants to use contractors, less problems if a contractor dies versus an actual US agent/mil.

Not exactly true; it's not that simple, but close enough. It works.

I think increasing the amount of the contract to allow for a contractor to conduct their ops in a twin-engine turbo prop would be an important remedy,

Do you REALLY believe that a 208 was used because it was the only thing that would fit the budget for that op? How unbelievably naive. Do you have any idea what kind of dollars are being spent?

As far as multi engine, the last airplane to go down there was a multi engine aircraft, with considerable support.

Both rebels and paramilitaries/Colombian military deal drugs

You have no idea what you're talking about. Who are the players, do you know? Who do you classify as "rebels," and who as "paramilitaries?" (First clue; the "rebels" are paramilitary). Do you really believe that the Colombian government, and military, is dealing drugs? Do you understand the scope and scrutiny here, and the amount of involvement?

Publicity isn't necessary here. The program, indeed all of Plan Colombia already has more than enough scrutiny. Colombia leads the world by a large margin in being the Kidnap leader of the world. The public isn't going to bring anyone home. Individuals and teams are risking their lives, even as this garbage is discussed here, to accomplish that fact, and these individuals have been engaged in this activity for some time. They haven't been pulled back, their mission hasn't changed. Those involved aren't forgotten, and talking about it isn't going to change that.

Excessive publicity could get people killed, it could compromise programs, plans, opeations, and people. There's a reason that everyone involved obtains a security clearance, there's a reason that certain information is made public and certain isn't, and there's a reason that someone else is doing this work, and not you. Leave it at that, and be grateful that it's being done, and let it get done. There's not a single thing you can do to change that, nor should you try.

 

[peepsmover]

Sage

Methinks thou protests too much, honestly, my viewpoint is as valid as anyones, your narrow depth is best illuminated by your statements, try and pick up some Spanish it might help. And yes I do know the players, as for labeling rebels and paramilitaries, (for the record people who truly understand the issue, note that paramilitary and military are one in the same) who really cares, it all depends on which side of the jungle you live, and yes unfortunately Colombian military do deal drugs, get over it, cocaine on military transports is no accident. Equally important, I do think publicity does help, as for trying to track these guys down in the friggin jungle, which I am certain they are exemplifies the ignorance of how things are really done in Colombia, if the Colombian govt could not rescue the daughter of a past president what do you think the chances are for a bunch of contractors.............hmmm. Interesting that you state publicity is not needed, again I think the family members of those captured would strongly disagree with you, ahhh but yes, oh wise one, you equate silence with advocacy, what a logical leap that is, and it has certainly been effective, right? Don't think so. Even more laughable "compromise programs" get a clue, dude! The moment the programs are funded everyone knows about them, there are no secrets in Colombia, only ignorant contractors who think nobody knows what they are doing, how tragic is that? What also shows your ignorance, yes I know for a fact how they try and do this op on a shoestring that compromises safety so for a single-engine to be doing this op is both stupid and sadly real. Shake off your "Col Flag" mentality it might come in handy.

 

[freightdogfred]

Excessive publicity could get people killed, it could compromise programs, plans, opeations, and people. There's a reason that everyone involved obtains a security clearance, there's a reason that certain information is made public and certain isn't, and there's a reason that someone else is doing this work, and not you. Leave it at that, and be grateful that it's being done, and let it get done. There's not a single thing you can do to change that, nor should you try.

1st) It's spelled operations, not "opeations".

2nd) Publicity does not seemed to be required by the persons who downed the A/C. They seem pretty informed on the whole operation.

3rd) A security clearance is always required by the "company" for this type of cloak and dagger crap.

4th) There is a reason the someone else is doing this work and not me and that reason is MONEY, and that's the long and short of it. I like money, and they ain't paying enough for me to risk my pink little ass down there. You think Hasenfus spent time in Managua as a guest of the Sandinistas becuase he was such a patriot???
These guys knew the stakes when they went down there, and they did'nt go because of the red, white and blue.

 

[avbug]

"Company" is a hollywood term. Operators call it the agency. This isn't an agency operation. Seems you aren't that informed, are you?

And yes, some do it for more than just mercinary purposes. In fact, more do, than do not. Your statement to the contrary is ignorant, ill informed, and insulting to those who risk themselves to perform this work. You may be too afraid to do it, but don't insult those who step up and work.

Many involved are sheepdipped operators; that a uniform isn't worn is a technicality. You hopefully wouldn't be stupid or ignorant enough to insult an operator in uniform; don't insult one who has shed the uniform for reasons you probably could never understand, all pay issues aside.

Yes, it does pay well. And so it should. Have you a problem with that?

 

[peepsmover]

Insulted

If anybody should feel insulted is the operators who are risking so much for so little, but hey pilots are pilots we all do what we do for different reasons, and certainly those who are flying ops down there who are taking a big risk and doing it for their respective reasons, undoubtedly it runs the whole gamut from those who believe in the mission, to those who just like operating in a risky environment doing cool things, but I will say this the money they offer there could never come close to what SWA, Fed Ex, et al make, and throw in the operational risk of life and limb, to say nothing of the "gringo" amongst the brown bros hazard, in the context of just commuting, etc trying not to stick out....good luck.

My angst stems from the fact that operators for these contractors are ill served by being in this status, they would be better protected as being real agents with status as real USG employees. Contractors are carrying out hazardous missions to implement a policy our politicians et al don't have the b---- to admit: we are risking Americans to carry out this policy, to make it all politically nice, we get deniability as a government but contractors bear the burden, because ultimately it delays the day when we as a Nation have to address the failure of Plan Colombia, and certainly do not get me wrong I would love nothing more than for it to be a success, but reality is something entirely different.

Av, you allege that you are well paid for what you do, well I sincerely hope so, but from what I know of the pay for the risk/reward or as someone else so eloquently stated "pink ass factor" I think even getting paid less to work elsewhere, to read, safer, has a higher probablity of ensuring it pays off in the long run, the "long run" even itself sufficing as the payoff.

 

[avbug]

I have no idea what you just said. I will say this: there is no evidence that Plan Colombia, or any other program there has failed. On the contrary, ample evidence exists of a successful continuing program, which continues to recieve increased funding...especially as it's prominance in anti-terror becomes more apparent.

There is no issue of deniability here. These programs are on the table; certain elements maintain operational security for the safety of thse involved. However, full disclosure reports are made before congress, and this is a program put forth by the State Department (et al). The specific mission in question, the eradication of certain drug producing plants and the support missions attached thereto, are not secret, are not denied, and are fully supported by the government.

The government uses contractors to fight fire, to build buildings, to maintain military aircraft, to fill numerous administrative positions, to flight instruct various agencies and military branches, etc. Let it be no surprise that contractors are used to fly, support, and operate these missions. Contractors fly numerous other roles for the government; it's nothing to do with deniability. These are state department operations and the state department has elected to contract out the job, pure and simple.

What kind of job is it? It's a crop dusting job. This isn't secret, but it needn't be published on the front page, either. A great deal of disinformation is published, both outside these operations, and from within. The purposes range from curiosity to poor reporting ethics by overzelous journalists and activists, to protection of those performing these duties.

What do the Caravans do? They photograph drugs and crops, and document before and after pictures of spray operations. Why? In order to show proof that only the specific targets and functions established by the State Department for these operations have been accomplished, and to document the fact that additional damage has not occured. In short, the Caravan ops are people who have been contracted to fly in support of preserving the reputation of the government by taking pictures in order to show that the government has done what it said it would do.

Shootdowns by the FARC are not denied or hidden by the US government. Neither are they brushed under the rug, nor suppressed. The government has expended a great deal of effort and money on finding and obtaining the release of those held hostage currently (there are hundreds), and will continue to do so. Those efforts are not public activities, nor should they be.

Two years ago a pilot was lost while ferrying a T-65 back from Colombia to Florida for depot maintenance. He was lost in a storm. A great deal of money and expense, and resources, were dedicated to locating him, to no avail. The government didn't deny what had happened, and it wasn't a secret. Nor did the government ignore his loss. This case presently is no different.

One of the functions I perform, among many, is contract initial attack wildland fire suppression for various US government agencies. I do not work for the agencies. I work for private companies that are contracted to the agencies. This is typical of many operations in which the government engages. Private contractors provide pilots, training, aircraft, support equipment, etc. The same thing occurs with a number of different contractors operating in Colombia, Peru, and locations throughout the world, as well as within the United States. There is nothing underhanded about this; a job is announced, bid, and a contractor selected to fulfill the role. These are not mercinaries; these are contract ag pilots performing an agricultural mission.

Who cares how any of this compares to what SWA, Fedex, or any other carrier is paying? This isn't a carrier job. It's entirely different. Perhaps you'd better served to compare it to ag wages in the industry, or other similiar types of work in the industry.

 

[TurboS7]

I talked to a friend that said that when he was doing ag work he made between 120K to 150K per year. And he only worked 6 months a year, this board should be full of AG spraying want a be pilots for that kind of money.

 

[cdog]

I've been working in Latin America for over 15 years. I don't have any ties with any US Gov contractors. I do see their operations though and I know their mission. They are a very committed and professional group of people. They work in a tough enviroment, wx, mountains and guns. They are not liked, they are in constant danger. They can't leave their base, they must always be armed. They are after all, trying to take away a people's livelyhood.

The 2 Vans that went down, 1 was shot down, the other one flew into a mountain at night while looking for the kidnapped crew.
There was also an AT-802 shot down reasently. The majority of the accidents are wx related though. The last one I know of was a CASA 212 which also flew into a mountain after flying into a box canyon.

They went to the AT-802 a few years ago, it is considered under powered (very big acft) and not as rugged as compared to the Ayres Thrushes they were equiped with before. Ol' Fred is getting back in business though, they are hoping to go back to the Thrushes.

The contract ag pilots actual role is to train nationals, they don't normally go on actual eradication missions in indian country. The contractors do most of the aerial recon missions though. That is in the extreme danger areas.

Every guy knows what he is getting into when he signs on the dotted line.

 

[avbug]

The first 802's went on line last year, for training. This was necessitated by the fact that out of 18 T-65's (S2R's), only three remained in inventory. The 802 has better armor, self sealing tanks, etc.

Argueably, a thrush is a better flying airplane.

 

[RightPedal]

doing ag work he made between 120K to 150K per year

We sure aren't making that kind of money in our area anymore. It's more like 1/3 of that at best for a hired pilot these day's.
I know a few seasoned turbine pilots that follow the season and make that kind of money though.

I know one guy that took a seat down south. From what I was told one must be able to speak spanish. I have a hard enough time with english, so I'll have to stay here with these old redneck crop dusters.

 

[flint4xx]

A clarification is needed:
There are three DIFFERENT categories of bad guys, plus the military.
1. Rebels...FARC, ELN, aka guerrillas.
2. Paramilitaries...mercenaries hired by wealthy land owners to eradicate rebels from their land.
3. Narcos...aka drug traffickers.

Sometimes you can be in more than one group, eg: narcoguerrillas.

The Colombian Military and Police do not deserve to be painted with such a broad brush. THOUSANDS (5000+) of them have been killed fighting on our behalf, as well as there for their own country. I have patrolled through the jungle with them, and ignorant statements in previous posts is a slap in the face to some very brave troopers. Sure, they have bad apples just like we do here. In fact while I lived there, a US Colonel and his wife were indicted for trafficking in cocaine. Hell, we had a dope smoking President.

There is so much more to what is behind this story, and Plan Colombia, than anybody here can imagine (myself included), involving the sovereignty of these countries, politics, and economics. If this was an easy issue we would have it settled already.

I wouldn't expect to see a rescue by US military forces. These are kidnapped contractors that are Americans. What if they were oil workers or merchant sailors or whatever? Would that change things? If they were government employees or soldiers, they would have been executed. They are alive because maybe their employer will buy their freedom. 70% of the worlds' kidnappings happen in Colombia, because it is good business.

I hardly think some chat on this website will influence anything about this case.

Time to close this thread.

 

[WrightAvia]

this board should be full of AG spraying want a be pilots for that kind of money.

It'd be easier to pay Colgan 20 grand, than try to build time doing this kind of work. That's why you don't see punks standing in line. It takes a certain kind of person to get involved with this kind of work, no matter what they pay.